Shorty 40 vs 4006 or 4013TSW Mag Question

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As I understand the Shorty40 is a shortened PC variant of the 4006 still using a double stack 40 mag, but at 9 rounds instead of 10 or 11.
So is the Shorty40 9rd magazine the same as a 9rd 4013TSW or is it a unicorn like the 4040PD is to the single stack 40 world?
Also what are differernces between Shorty40, Mk2, and Mk3?
Thanks in advance, Ed
 
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Like most of the .40 magazines the TSW's, Shorty's and Recon's have that "bump". The 9mm's do not.

Like the 4040PD magazines they are NOT unicorns. (Yet.) Of course you already know this but the full size 4006 and 5906 with the +2 adapters are a great option.

Jim
 

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So all the 40 double stack can be used, assuming you have the adapter for the 11 rd 4006 mags.

Is there any difference between the PC marked Shorty40 9rd mags and the 4013 TSW mags other than the PC markings?
 
Even though the Shorty 40 product code calls it a 4006, it is not a shortened 4006. The 4006 is a stainless framed firearm when the shorties are aluminium alloy framed firearms.

Here is my Shorty 40 MK-II with a flush fit magazine

Shorty%2040%20MK2%20Ls.jpg


It was just a poorly written description of the product code when they created it back in the 90s

You can use the full size 4006 mags with out the little sleeve

They still function, they just do not look as pretty

I am very fond of the full length magazines in the shorty for both the feel and the look. Here is my Shorty 357 with one of the full size magazines and the spacer sleeve

shorty357as.jpg


With the exception of the markings, the 4013TSW magazines and the Shorty 40 magazines are identical
 
Like most of the .40 magazines the TSW's, Shorty's and Recon's have that "bump". The 9mm's do not.

I had forgotten about the bump on the forward face of the 40 magazines, -vs- the 9s that don't, as the only double stack 9mm I currently have is the PC 3566 Limited.

To my surprise, when I pulled out my 3566 to look, I found that it's mag well has a notch machined in it which will allow DS 40 mags to be inserted too.

Wonder why they did that since it takes standard 5906 mags?

.
 
Wonder why they did that since it takes standard 5906 mags?

You made me wonder too.

I looked at my PPC9 and its magazine well is "notched"/relieved also. A 4006 mag of course went right in and locked. So we both are wondering why the notch was done to 9mm frame wells.

Maybe there was just one basic frame to start out with and they all got notches. Some became .40's and others 9's. (?)

*** Edit to add. *** I'm an idiot. Looked at my Shorty 9 and 9 Recon. Both have the .40 relief and .40 magazines fit fine. The 6906 does not have it.

I'm sure most have known this forever but at least I learned eventually.

Jim
 
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Just checked my Shorty 40 & it too has it.

So maybe only the Performance Center pistols had it done to them?

The bump was added for a reason. Why did they negate it on some pistols?

Why did you say you're an idiot??

.
 
The Performance Center components are made in the Performance Center on Performance Center CNC mills running code that was designed for and only used by the Performance Center

When Paul Liebenberg began his Performance Center duties, his proposal to Senior Management was that they design a full size and a compact double stack frame and those would be the basis for all wide body the semi-auto models that they introduce. This would greatly reduce design and programming time

So the CNC code was created for these two frames. No matter what wide body auto loader they were doing a run of frames for the only choice to make was full size or compact

While I did not ask Paul why when I interviewed him, I have to believe that the average Performance Center auto loader owner has above average knowledge of the shooting sports and handling/safety issues

Most every other pistol on the planet allows 9MM or 40S&W magazines to be put in either frame (presuming that they are offered on the same platform)
 
Why did you say you're an idiot??

Because I really should have noticed that the PC double stack's I have are all relieved for .40 magazines.

At least my thought about all the double stack 9mm and .40 frames starting out the same was correct.

Thanks colt_saa for the great explanation/confirmation.

Jim
 
Jim, BLUEDOT, and colt_, I don't own any Performance Center pistols and I've never met Paul Liebenberg, but this discussion has me curious about something.

The 40XX and 59XX base models look very similar, but in actuality, the 9mm slide wasn't big enough for the 40 barrel, so S&W designed a taller and wider slide for the 40 models.

As mentioned on another thread, while the base model rear frame rails were the same for the 9mm and 40 pistols, the front rails (and dust cover) are wider on the 40s.

The TSW models eliminated this practice and built the 59XX and 40XX TSW models to the 40 frame and slide dimensions.

I am inferring from this conversation that Paul Liebenberg may have been the originator of the shared frame/slide concept that S&W co-opted for the TSW models.

So all of the previous prefaces my question.

On the Performance Center 9mm models you own, do they have the 9mm slide (with the narrow dust cover and rails) or do they have the 40 slide (with the wider dust cover and rails)?

John?
 
I am inferring from this conversation that Paul Liebenberg may have been the originator of the shared frame/slide concept that S&W co-opted for the TSW models.

It always scares me when you and I think alike. (Not sure if I'm scared for myself or you though.)

It doesn't count cause I initially didn't raise that question about the TSW's but thought about it.

Too late today for me to answer your dust cover/rail question. Obviously if I've never noticed the same mag well reliefs I also didn't pay attention to that either.

Jim
 
On the subject of shared mag well dimensions between the 9mm and 40 double stacks, we can safely assume S&W put the bump on the 40 mags to keep them out of the 9mm models.

Seems like a relatively cautious thing to do, although it's impossible to chamber a 40 in a 9mm barrel.

I was always more concerned about the ease with which several 9mm rounds could be jacked in to a 40 barrel before someone pulled the trigger. (KABLOOIE :eek:)

I've never heard of that happening so I guess the good folks at S&W concluded that was not a problem, as evidenced by the fact that every one of my 40 and 9mm double stack pistols will accept either mag in their magwells (except for the 40 bump, of course).

At least I thought that until I acquired a very early production model 4006.

That is the ONLY 40 double stack pistol I have ever handled that WON'T accept a 9mm (59XX) mag.

It will take any of my 40 mags, but no 9mm (even though it looks like all the other magwells).

So it would seem S&W was concerned (early on) about the interchangeability of mags between the the two calibers, but later decided it was not an issue.

Perhaps the difficulty of holding the 40 magwell to slightly smaller dimensions was more of a problem than the issue they were trying to prevent?

John
 
On the subject of shared mag well dimensions between the 9mm and 40 double stacks, we can safely assume S&W put the bump on the 40 mags to keep them out of the 9mm models.

Seems like a relatively cautious thing to do, although it's impossible to chamber a 40 in a 9mm barrel.

John
Had this happen

One year when FHP was doing one of the mass qualification days out at the range in Okeechobee we had one of the Majors step up to the firing line and draw his duty weapon (or so he thought), he proceeded to slingshot the slide only to have it stop before chambering a round. Fortunately I was the closet range officer and took the firearm out of his hands and we walked off the line and went into the little hut that was there.

When I walked up on him I know instantly what had happened.

When we transitioned from the Beretta 92 to the Beretta 96D Troopers were allowed to purchase their old duty weapon. This major had done that.

It turned out he was running late for the long drive (~2 hours) up to the range from his home in Plantation so when he pulled his firearm from the safe, he grabbed the 92, inserted a magazine and placed it in his holster.

On the firing line, the 40S&W ammunition would not enter the 9MM barrel. He was embarrassed but we were the only two that knew what actually happened and I kept it that way

I loaned him a 96D from one of the THI Sargents and proceeded to get him through all three of his qualification courses (duty weapon, backup weapon, shotgun).

That is the only incident that I recall us having. This Major was not a Gun Guy, so in a rush he made a mistake. Fortunately that mistake showed itself at qualification and not in the field. Though at this point in his service to the State he no longer personally responded to situations in the field and truthfully Troopers going into the field would have chambered a round of ammunition prior to holstering their sidearm for a day of field Duty


I was always more concerned about the ease with which several 9mm rounds could be jacked in to a 40 barrel before someone pulled the trigger. (KABLOOIE :eek:)

I've never heard of that happening so I guess the good folks at S&W concluded that was not a problem, as evidenced by the fact that every one of my 40 and 9mm double stack pistols will accept either mag in their magwells (except for the 40 bump, of course).

John
It could not possibly go "KABLOOIE "

While the extractor MIGHT hold the 9MM against the breech face so that the firing pin could hit the primer. Once it fired, the case would just split. Since the projectile and case can not seal the bore, pressure would drop so fast that the projectile would probably just fall out the front of the firearm

The barrel would contain the case split, recoil would not exist and the slide would not cycle. Some gas might vent out the ejection port, but not enough to matter

There would be no danger to the shooter




On a positive note.

During the magazine ban imposed by the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 it was not uncommon for 9MM pistol users to buy 10 round Restricted Capacity 40S&&W magazines for use in their 9MM firearms. Occasionally the follower had to be changed but in many cases they just worked and obviously they held more than 10 rounds

Many Millions of Americans used this method to circumvent Congress's Unconstitutional act of infringing on the Second Amendment and get a magazine that was closer to standard capacity

I am sure that most of you know and it is no surprise for the rest of you to learn that the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 or more commonly called the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 was proposed by Senator Chuck Shumer and pushed by President William Jefferson Clinton

I just do not understand how Shumer gets re-elected :(
 
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Thank you for sharing your experience with the FHP Major and his Berettas.

Your anecdotal evidence proves conclusively that a 40 will not chamber in a 9mm barrel. ;)

And while I am inclined to agree that a single 9mm cartridge in a 40 chamber would more likely result in a phfft than a BANG!!!!!!, three or four 9mm rounds, nose to tail in a 40 barrel brings to mind the cautions against pointed nose rounds in a tubular magazine or the disastrous 12-20 kabooms in the shotgun world.

It would require a massive lack of attention to jack three or four rounds of 9mm in to a 40 barrel and be completely unaware, but I could see how it might happen.

I've never worked in the gun business, but I did spend 40 years in the motorcycle business.

The manufacturers all owned test tracks, employed test riders, and spent fortunes on product testing, but we all agreed that until a new model got in to the hands of the "great unwashed masses", all the new and unbelievable ways a machine could be broken would remain undiscovered.

Perhaps the 9, 9, 9, 40 kablooie was never found to be a problem by the gun companies, but I still think it could happen, and the gremlin in me would like to see it tried. :eek:

I wouldn't want my hand, arm, and face to be the tester.

But if we could get Chuck Schumer . . .

John
 
On the Performance Center 9mm models you own, do they have the 9mm slide (with the narrow dust cover and rails) or do they have the 40 slide (with the wider dust cover and rails)?

I only took images of the Shorty 9 and Shorty 40. Schools out and I have limited time in the "fun room."

Does this answer any of your questions?

Edit to fix mislabeled #3 image

Jim
 

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Thanks, Jim.

It surely does.

Pic 3 clearly shows the slide dust cover and front rail dimensions of both the 9 and 40 share the 40 design dimensions, just like the TSW models.

Pics 1 and 2 show the subtle design difference between the 9 and 40 mags, i.e. the rounded rear corners of the 9mm mag and magwell versus the square corners on the 40.

John
 
btw, Jim what did you mean by "schools out"?

I know you are a smart guy and can afford to take a day off from learning now and then.

But I am so far behind I need to be learning 24/7, and even at that, I would need a "learning clone" if I ever even hope to merely "catch up". :o

John
 
Even though the Shorty 40 product code calls it a 4006, it is not a shortened 4006. The 4006 is a stainless framed firearm when the shorties are aluminium alloy framed firearms.

Here is my Shorty 40 MK-II with a flush fit magazine

Shorty%2040%20MK2%20Ls.jpg


It was just a poorly written description of the product code when they created it back in the 90s

You can use the full size 4006 mags with out the little sleeve

They still function, they just do not look as pretty

I am very fond of the full length magazines in the shorty for both the feel and the look. Here is my Shorty 357 with one of the full size magazines and the spacer sleeve

shorty357as.jpg


With the exception of the markings, the 4013TSW magazines and the Shorty 40 magazines are identical

Who makes that spacer?
 
Who makes that spacer?

Precision Gun Specialties

Great people. They prefer a phone call. Keep trying cause they don't always answer every day.

They are/were LE and offer LE and Military discounts. The +2 adaptors are $10.00 ea. with a minimum of $5.75 shipping.

Edit to add, they do not work on Meg-Gar 5906 17 rnd magazines. Don't know about their 15 rnd ones.

Jim
 

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We never had a problem getting 9mm rounds in a 40 cal but had several instances where officers got 40 cal rounds into their 45s. All were S/W guns.

For many years our dept used only 9 and 45 semi auto ammo. No problems. Then Fire Marshalls who carried 40 cal began going through their qualification at our facility and for some unknown reason turned in 20 of their rounds like other officers. Shoot 30 for qual/turn in 20 get a new box after you qualify. This ammo got mixed in with the 45 cal ammo turned in by PD officers. Anyway officers would get sent to the range to test fire their S/W 45 after it had been repaired or new sights etc. Range staff would grab a handful of 45 ammo from the turn in box and give it to them to test fire. What happened a few times before we got it straightened out. Officer would fire their 4506 /66/16 and after a few rounds it would lock up with a bulged barrel with a 45 cal bullet inside. Protruding from the muzzle would be a 40 cal casing that would be blossomed out like flower petals. So the gun would fire reloading the next round a 40 cal , it would fire but the case would not extract, when the next round loaded the 45 bullet would push the 40 casing forward and then fire and there you go. We had this happen at least 3-4 times over the years. Sometimes just an officer making the mistake loading their own gun. In each case we were able to cut the old barrel out replace it with a new barrel and fix the gun with no further issues.
 
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