Shotgun Resurgence?
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ContinentalOp
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Again, not a shotgun guy, but when doing my research I found myself leaning towards getting a semi-auto rather than a pump. Not because of difficulty with the pump, though. I've had some training with the Remington 870 and can't recall ever having issues with the pump. Of course, I've also never had to work the pump while someone was trying to kill me. What swayed my thinking was the thought of Special Agent Ed Mireles trying to work an 870 pump one-handed during the 1986 Miami Shootout. I like the idea of self defense guns that can be operated one-handed if necessary, including long guns.
However, I still like the Ithaca 37/87 with its downward shell ejection; if I start getting into long guns, I plan on doing it as a lefty since I'm cross-dominant.
This is something I've always been concerned about with long guns. My understanding is that they don't have passive safeties to keep a gun from discharging if dropped, like most handguns do. I've always seen it recommended to keep the mag full but the chamber empty, whether rifle or shotgun, pump or semi-auto, when stored but ready for action if needed, including instructors I've had.
But as I said before, I'm not all that familiar with long guns, so I could be wrong.
Not really surprising. "Just get a shotgun" for home defense is a common recommendation from hunters, backyard shooters or semi-educated gun guys to complete beginners who come to them with questions and are simply wanting a means of self-defense "just in case". Plus they are generally affordable. For me, a shotgun can serve a role or specific niche or even be ideal in certain specific circumstances, but I think they are a terrible choice if only having one gun, especially for an untrained novice.
hkcavalier
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I'm cross-eye dominant, shoot long guns left handed, and prefer the Mossberg 500 due to the tang safety.
I do have a semi, a Black Aces (Turkish) that I just couldn't pass up for less than four bills with real walnut furniture. I still really need to break it in, but it's a solid gun.
ContinentalOp
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That's another one I've considered. I think Mossberg makes a semi-auto with tang safety, too. 935...? It's been a while since I've looked into them.
hkcavalier
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The 930s should be laid out the same.
Having the ease of visually checking the chamber when firing left handed is a benefit. I never get distracted by shells flying around as I'm looking at the target when shooting.
Having the ease of visually checking the chamber when firing left handed is a benefit. I never get distracted by shells flying around as I'm looking at the target when shooting.
ContinentalOp
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Cool. Thanks. I'm more worried about getting hit in the face with ejected shells than being visually distracted. That's why I like the Ithaca 37/87 with it's downward ejection, or ARs with case deflectors. I'd rather not get a lefty-specific gun/controls, though.
P.S.: Off topic, but from your username I think we like the same movie.
DWalt
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For home (or other stationary) defense purposes, nothing makes more sense, and is more deadly, than a handy shotgun. I won't get into the merits of types, gauges,or shot sizes as it doesn't make that much difference in results. For me, it's a 12 Gauge pump loaded with #4 Buck.
hkcavalier
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Cool. Thanks. I'm more worried about getting hit in the face with ejected shells than being visually distracted. That's why I like the Ithaca 37/87 with it's downward ejection, or ARs with case deflectors. I'd rather not get a lefty-specific gun/controls, though.
P.S.: Off topic, but from your username I think we like the same movie.
Not many people get it. Movie is over 35 years old now. I don't even know why I started using it as a gun forum username. I think I had just seen the movie again and thought it would be cute.
Just remember, red Lectroids bad, black Lectroids good.
ContinentalOp
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When I laid out courses of fire for shotgun that were tactically oriented I was shocked at the number of folks who didn't automatically cycle a fresh round into the chamber. Probably shouldn't have been. The semi eliminates that failure.
Virtually all shotguns have trigger blocking safeties and therefore aren't drop safe. Generally, if you can apply the safety when the hammer/striker isn't cocked, you have a trigger blocking safety. Sear blocking safeties are much better in that respect.
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Echo40
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That's actually good advice in general.
Headshots tend to be incapacitating and a good shot to the pelvis will disable the attackers ability to remain standing. Besides, even if you don't hit their brain or spine, the odds of them being temporarily blinded by getting blood spattered in their eyes is pretty high. Furthermore, a missed shot to the pelvis is still going to hit something important.
Also, when engaging a sexual predator, a crotch shot is obviously the most appropriate spot to aim for.
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The target with a shotgun should be no different that the target with any other gun. Center mass. Anything else is dangerous, especially under the stress of needing to use deadly force.
I've always had a shotgun close at hand for home defense as well as a trusty S&W revolver. That shotgun being a youth model 20ga Mossberg 500.
I recently acquired this Circa 1970's Mossberg 500ATP. It was imported - purportedly used by the Malaysian army. Extended tube with bayonet M16 mounting lug. Bluing is all gone if it ever had any and the furniture is worn. Overall shape is fair to good but the action and internals are all working well.
I recently acquired this Circa 1970's Mossberg 500ATP. It was imported - purportedly used by the Malaysian army. Extended tube with bayonet M16 mounting lug. Bluing is all gone if it ever had any and the furniture is worn. Overall shape is fair to good but the action and internals are all working well.
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LoboGunLeather
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The history of shotguns for personal defense is centuries long. Blunderbusses loaded with gravel or nails served very well as a defense against highwaymen or burglars. "Buck and ball" muskets provided many pioneers with both home protection and hunting capabilities. Shotguns were commonly used in the American Revolution and later in the Civil War, either with buckshot or "punkin balls". Stage coach guards and express agents relied on shotguns to protect their charges. US Postal Service guards carried shotguns in performing their duties. Shotguns were feared and reviled in WW1 trench warfare, to a point that German troops frequently executed any Allied soldiers armed with shotguns. Shotguns were issued to American forces in WW2, and highly regarded for close combat in such places as Guadalcanal and the Phillipines. Shotguns were in general issue when I served in Vietnam, with both buckshot and "nail rounds" (fleschette cartridges loaded with nail-like darts). Shotguns have been in common use by American law enforcement officers for as long as there have been American law enforcement officers.
I still keep a Remington 870 12-gauge pump at home, loaded with 2-3/4" field loads of BB-shot, about 90 pellets of .17 to .18 caliber. The longest unobstructed distance in my home is less than 40 feet. I doubt that anyone on the receiving end would ever know the difference between 1.25 oz. of BB's or a rifled slug, but I know my ammo will not penetrate two interior walls or one exterior wall.
A good shotgun makes a fine defensive weapon for the home. Minimal training and minimal experience required for maximum effectiveness in times of need.
I still keep a Remington 870 12-gauge pump at home, loaded with 2-3/4" field loads of BB-shot, about 90 pellets of .17 to .18 caliber. The longest unobstructed distance in my home is less than 40 feet. I doubt that anyone on the receiving end would ever know the difference between 1.25 oz. of BB's or a rifled slug, but I know my ammo will not penetrate two interior walls or one exterior wall.
A good shotgun makes a fine defensive weapon for the home. Minimal training and minimal experience required for maximum effectiveness in times of need.
Lots of remarks... But again I say that High Brass in a Home with others inside is foolish. As I posted above Ive treated several folks that were DOA but I had to do the ER GSW Protocol till a MD could call the Code. Ive shot #7 shot at 12 Yds into a HD 5 gal water Bucket and it blew through it. Anyone who says it wont go through a Leather Jacket is ...well.... Kind of out of reality.
ContinentalOp
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Interesting timing. This just popped up on my YouTube feed.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4tc1mKdAiU[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4tc1mKdAiU[/ame]
DWalt
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" Shotguns were feared and reviled in WW1 trench warfare, to a point that German troops frequently executed any Allied soldiers armed with shotguns. "
The Germans threatened to do that, but never did any executions. Pershing set them straight that if anything like that happened, the AEF would adopt a "Take No Prisoners" policy.
The Germans threatened to do that, but never did any executions. Pershing set them straight that if anything like that happened, the AEF would adopt a "Take No Prisoners" policy.
for a first time firearms buyer, with no previous experience, a shotgun is the best bet.
Their current popularity doesn't surprise me in the least.
Their current popularity doesn't surprise me in the least.
Also with the existing buying panic, first time firearm buyers can buy a shotgun (long gun) without a Sherriff issued permit, In NC.
So I suspect a lot of shotguns went that route.
So I suspect a lot of shotguns went that route.
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cyphertext
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What? Any firearm purchased from a licensed FFL will require a background check. Doesn't matter if they are a first time buyer, or if it is a long gun, hand gun, firearm, or AOW.
You are absolutely correct. I meant to say permit. I will correct the post. Thanks!!
AManWearingAHat
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I suspect that shotguns are the long arm most people are immediately familiar with the general operation of, lending them as an easy first choice to the new gun owner.
My two cents. How many people here remember the movie "El Dorado", where John Wayne has James Caan get a sawed off that had been carried by a blind man?
I am not bashing shotgun owners, but realistically, a defensive shotgun requires less training and practice to be "proficient" in a defensive scenario. Many of the first time owners are more likely of the impression that all you need to do is "load, point, shoot". Becoming proficient at close range with a shotgun doesn't require the training and practice usually associated with pistols and rifles.
In many respects, the shotgun is the closest firearm with "plug and play" features .
I am not bashing shotgun owners, but realistically, a defensive shotgun requires less training and practice to be "proficient" in a defensive scenario. Many of the first time owners are more likely of the impression that all you need to do is "load, point, shoot". Becoming proficient at close range with a shotgun doesn't require the training and practice usually associated with pistols and rifles.
In many respects, the shotgun is the closest firearm with "plug and play" features .
Rastoff
US Veteran
How do you know it was the wad and not the shot?At ten yards, with #7 shot, Tac-14, the wad would knock over our target stands
You will not get hit in the face with an ejected shell. I'm a lefty and I've fired over 100,000 rounds with semi-auto shotguns and never been hit in the face with an ejected shell. Neither are they visually distracting.
I'm blown away by the poor information in this thread. Using #7.5 or smaller shot is a terrible idea for self-defense. Even at close range where it doesn't spread out a lot, because the pellets are so small, they won't penetrate enough to stop the bad guy.
Remember, the point is to stop the bad guy. Not scare him, wound him, injure him or even startle him. No, it's to stop him cold in his tracks.
The x-ray of the guy with all the shot in him is nifty, but that guy is still a viable threat and now he's pissed.
I'll take 00Buck over every other round any day. Sure, if you miss there could be a penetration issue, but the chances of that penetration actually harming an innocent are astronomically small. I want the surety of a stop on the first shot.
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If the HD water bucket was galvanized steel, it doesn't flex like a ribcage on a living body. Nor does the bucket sway with the impact like a body will. There was some clown on the internet shooting pork ribs nailed to a board with what looked like a 30 in full choke shogun using birdshot. That is NOT a good simulation of the living body nor a situation a home defender faces .
I don't doubt that people have died from being hit by birdshot. However, people get stuck by lightning too. The problem is, as Rastoff notes, that you need to stop the assault as rapidly as possible regardless of range, size of attacker, body position and/or level of either hormonal or street drug enhancement..
The other side of that coin is that anything moving faster than a .177 pellet at~300 f/s is going through drywall interior partitions with enough energy to cause death/serious bodily injury if it hits the proper areas of the innocent body. Again, I've seen the tragic results of stray pellets. Best to know where permissible shooting lanes are. Training family members to go prone in the event of violence is best.
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cyphertext
US Veteran
Agree... There is a reason why they call it "birdshot" and "buckshot".
Jack Flash
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The same debate rages every time shotguns are mentioned.
I would be willing to bet that if the guy with the x-ray below was still mobile, he sure as hell didn't stick around for another dose of the same!
I would be willing to bet that if the guy with the x-ray below was still mobile, he sure as hell didn't stick around for another dose of the same!
LOL
Just remembered ...... our former VP told everyone to go out and get a shotgun............. for firing out the window
So Democrats flocking to the gun shops; like a liberal who's just been mugged, are buying shotguns!!!!!
Just remembered ...... our former VP told everyone to go out and get a shotgun............. for firing out the window
So Democrats flocking to the gun shops; like a liberal who's just been mugged, are buying shotguns!!!!!
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