Should very large handgun magazines be heavily regulated

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John, I'll give you credit: You're at least consistent.

I aim to please :)

So on the off chance you are actually interested, I'll attempt to further explain my position.

I've noticed that when I say I am opposed to certain laws, I am often accused of WANTING the presumed alternative condition. Not necessarily true. Rather, I recognize that living in a free society entails risk. I would rather assume that risk than give up my liberty in a futile attempt to legislate away the risk.

Firearm ownership, encompassing both our right to protect our own life and to own property, is a fundamental human right. As such, any 'reasonable' restriction must pass a VERY high bar way beyond mere fear or annoyance. Attempting to restrict activities that has no impact on another's rights is not reasonable. That's why they're called rights.

As an example, the media has done far more damage to this nation than any firearm through its slanted, divisive reporting. They intentionally pit one against another to create hostility, the rioting of the last 2 years being an example.

But I will never propose that reporters require licensing or government approved training to report. I will never propose they only be allowed to report one story per month. I will never propose that any story be a maximum of 10 seconds or 10 words. My annoyance at their behavior doesn't empower me to infringe on their rights.

The 2nd Amendment is no less fundamental or sacred than the 1st. My rights end at the tip of your nose, but it isn't reasonable to restrict rightful activity that doesn't get in your nose.

So with that background in mind, here's how I apply it to your proposed list:


* People convicted of violent crimes should be able to own firearms.

People who have paid their debt to society, have repented of their past behavior, and no longer commit crimes should be welcomed back as full citizens with all their rights. I have no issue with, and fully support, people who don't commit crimes owning firearms, regardless of their past. Condemning people for life only started in 1938.

Flip side: those who refuse to rehabilitate and can't be trusted as a citizen with full rights should be kept out of society until they can be.

Fails the reasonableness test.

* A 10 year old should be able to buy a pistol and carry it.

Interesting question. At what age does a person become a 'full' person? I'll suggest that anyone who can be charged as an adult for a crime is a full person and has full rights.

What does a person's age have to do with him carrying an inanimate object? In my Dad's time it was common for children to bring their rifles to school, leave them in the closet, then go plinking after school on the way home.

Fails the reasonableness test.

* Convicts should be able to be armed while in prison.

Convicts in prison have forfeited their rights,

Reasonableness test isn't applicable

* People who are institutionalized should be able to order guns through the mail.

A multi-part question.

Is the person institutionalized voluntarily? Then they are obligated to abide by whatever agreement made regarding firearms.

Fails the reasonableness test, but is subject to binding agreement.

Involuntarily? I will assume all due process was followed and therefor his rights are no longer in force, making the 'reasonable' test not applicable. However the institution accepts all responsibility for the person's safety.

Reasonableness test isn't applicable

Mail? Irrelevent to the question and will be answered below.

* No hunter safety classes should be required.

Whose nose WILL (not MIGHT or COULD) get bent out of shape? I don't know of any.

Fails the reasonable test.

* Tourists at the White House should be able to carry their guns.

While the White House is public property, it is treated as private property since the general public has no automatic right to be there. As such the White House has the right to decide who comes in and what they carry. The right to carry a firearm does not supercede another's right to control their private property

Passes the reasonableness test.

* High school students should be able to carry submachine guns in class.

Another multipart question.

High school student: Assuming this is an age related question, same answer as the 10 year old.
Fail.

Carry submachine gun: Whose nose is bent out of shape? Remember, there is a higher standard than merely being annoyed or offended. The question also specified CARRYING, not USING.
Fail.

In class: Similar to the White House question. The school has the right to define the conditions upon which a person is allowed to enter.
Pass.

* Target shooting on public streets should be legal.

The public street is there for all of the public to use. Target shooting would require building backstops and other construction to make it suitable for use as such and safe for those next to the street. That would interfere with the public's use of the street, so other's noses are definitely impacted.
Pass.

* Amazon should be able to sell and ship guns directly to buyers.

Absolutely, and was common practice by other companies prior to 1968.
Fail.

* If a drug dealer wants to buy 100 Glocks and resell them, that's okay.

Another 2 part question:
Drug crimes: should be done away with, so that category of person disappears.
Fail.

Buy sell 100 Glocks: Buying and selling private property has no affect on anyone else's nose.
Fail.

* Passengers on public transportation -- airplanes, trains, etc. -- can be armed.

Carrying a weapon on a mode of public transportation is no more an impact on others' noses as carrying anyplace else in public.
Fail.

* There should be no enhanced penalties for crimes committed with firearms.

We have somehow allowed the notion to persist that it is worse to be shot to death than beaten, stabbed, strangled, or anything else. It isn't. We have surrendered the principle that guns (an inanimate object) is somehow 'bad'. The banners have run with this. "You can't be opposed to banning ____, you yourself have said they are exceptionally dangerous".

Whose nose is impacted by not enhancing a penalty? The punishment should fit the crime, regardless of the weapon used.
Fail.


I have a few 'Passes' in there, but other than prisoners and involuntary commitments (which aren't applicable since they don't have full rights), they all fall under the principle that everyone has the right to control their own property and you can't prevent the use of public property. So I will claim I am still consistent. :)
 
Yeah, fantasies about crime and justice play well here...and we all have them. But the USA isn't a libertarian Disneyland, and I don't think the Founding Fathers ever intended it to be one.

Obviously not now, but the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation, Constitution, and Federalist Papers say it was.

In a legislative hearing or a meeting with elected/appointed government officials, you have to present rational and reasonable arguments to people who might not be inclined to agree with you, and then persuade them to vote your way. In the real world, declaring your support for getting rid of all gun laws will get you laughed out of the room.

One of the things that has become very apparent on this thread is that many of the folks commenting on it have never defended gun rights except among like-minded people on the internet...

I'll point out this discussion started out about magazine bans and our opposition to them. While a bunch (me included) have stated our opposition to existing laws, no one has proposed doing away with them, as much as we would like to.

We all recognize that most of the elected officials are political animals who are interested in empowering themselves, not the principles of limited government by free people and with our consent.

It's a bit disingenuous to imply that we did and then denigrate us for it.
 
Question for the OP:

If your wish were granted and magazines were ultimately limited to X amount of capacity, would YOU want the ban to include ownership and possession of all existing hi cap mags as well - or would 'grandfathered' ownership be acceptable?
 
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How many rounds did the killer(s) fire?
Since it was probably already illegal for the shooter to have the gun in the first place, how would a law against high capacity magazines have made any difference?
 
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We all have our thoughts on these things. Whatever Congress or my legislature decides is what I'll do. If I don't like it, I'll work through that system to get it changed.

How about stopping the congress or legislature before they make any more stupid laws? That way you don't have to work through the system to change anything.
 
A question or two -

If we agree to "no 30 round magazines" how do we with any intellectual integrity object to the possession of three 10 round magazines? And do we expect anti-gunners will be satisfied with a ban on 30 rounders but OK with 20 or 25 round magazines?

2nd Amendment attorney Gura (of Heller fame) has stated the courts do not like arbitrary numbers. He suggests that courts may accept a "form and function" approach. Meaning that a Glock or M&P pistol work naturally with 15 to 20 round magazines. ARs come with anything from 15 to 30 rounders. There's nothing grotesque, so to speak, about a BHP with a 17 round magazine. Gura further asserts that someone living in the woods away from society (like me when I'm in OR :)) can be reasonably expected to benefit from a 30 or 50 or 100 round magazine.

I don't necessarily agree with his position however the legal theory, in that it rejects an arbitrary number, is interesting. Magazine restrictions are on their face abhorrent.
 
1. Criminals can get legal tools much more easily than illegal tools.
2. The murderer Loughton wouldn't agree - he was overpowered when he muffed his reload to a second 33 round mag.
3. While there are many factors involved, murder rates in this country dropped from 8.89 per 100,000 population in 1994 to 5.56 per 100,000 in 2004. They are slightly above that now, but not much. Who really cares what happens to political parties?
4. Not my call, but i'd mildly suggest 18-19 rounds for handguns (whatever the largest flush-fit mags for available calibers might be now) and 30 rounds for semi-auto rifles. Generations of our armed forces have done just fine with these mags even in combat - you should be fine as well.

Look, I know we won't agree; I just refuse to accept platitudes as fact. If we want to keep what we have, we need to be as accurate in our arguments as in our shooting, IMO.

So you believe:

1. In arbitrary numbers for mag capacity
2. DIFFERENT numbers whether the gun is a rifle or pistol
3. That the left will say "oh ok, thanks guys. We're good now that you have volunteered this nice, arbitrary number. We won't pursue anymore restrictions."

This is your thought process? Seriously?

What about my Ruger PC Carbine that takes Glock magazines. It's a "rifle," but the magazines are for "handguns?" Why are we volunteering to go through this nonsensical Kabuki dance again?

Also: Overall violent crime has been decreasing for many years up until just recently when "Defund The Police" became a rallying cry. When the mag restrictions were lifted, the crime rate continued on it's normal, downward trajectory. Why did you leave that out?

Let's just say that we could snap our fingers and all "33 round" mags disappeared. Another magazine will then become the target! 17 round magazines will be viewed as "hi capacity." Don't you see the folly in your logic? MAG CAPACITY is not the reason people commit crimes.
 
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That is the sort of thinking that got us to where we are today. Maybe someday things will get bad enough the majority of us will decide to do something about it.

Exactly. The constitution is not up for negotiation.

Either get enough support to amend it, or shut the hell up and follow it.

if you keep trying to circumvent it, eventually the people are going to stop you permanently.
 
Question, do others read long posts like this, or do most of you skip over them like I do?


I aim to please :)

So on the off chance you are actually interested, I'll attempt to further explain my position.

I've noticed that when I say I am opposed to certain laws, I am often accused of WANTING the presumed alternative condition. Not necessarily true. Rather, I recognize that living in a free society entails risk. I would rather assume that risk than give up my liberty in a futile attempt to legislate away the risk.

Firearm ownership, encompassing both our right to protect our own life and to own property, is a fundamental human right. As such, any 'reasonable' restriction must pass a VERY high bar way beyond mere fear or annoyance. Attempting to restrict activities that has no impact on another's rights is not reasonable. That's why they're called rights.

As an example, the media has done far more damage to this nation than any firearm through its slanted, divisive reporting. They intentionally pit one against another to create hostility, the rioting of the last 2 years being an example.

But I will never propose that reporters require licensing or government approved training to report. I will never propose they only be allowed to report one story per month. I will never propose that any story be a maximum of 10 seconds or 10 words. My annoyance at their behavior doesn't empower me to infringe on their rights.

The 2nd Amendment is no less fundamental or sacred than the 1st. My rights end at the tip of your nose, but it isn't reasonable to restrict rightful activity that doesn't get in your nose.

So with that background in mind, here's how I apply it to your proposed list:




People who have paid their debt to society, have repented of their past behavior, and no longer commit crimes should be welcomed back as full citizens with all their rights. I have no issue with, and fully support, people who don't commit crimes owning firearms, regardless of their past. Condemning people for life only started in 1938.

Flip side: those who refuse to rehabilitate and can't be trusted as a citizen with full rights should be kept out of society until they can be.

Fails the reasonableness test.



Interesting question. At what age does a person become a 'full' person? I'll suggest that anyone who can be charged as an adult for a crime is a full person and has full rights.

What does a person's age have to do with him carrying an inanimate object? In my Dad's time it was common for children to bring their rifles to school, leave them in the closet, then go plinking after school on the way home.

Fails the reasonableness test.



Convicts in prison have forfeited their rights,

Reasonableness test isn't applicable



A multi-part question.

Is the person institutionalized voluntarily? Then they are obligated to abide by whatever agreement made regarding firearms.

Fails the reasonableness test, but is subject to binding agreement.

Involuntarily? I will assume all due process was followed and therefor his rights are no longer in force, making the 'reasonable' test not applicable. However the institution accepts all responsibility for the person's safety.

Reasonableness test isn't applicable

Mail? Irrelevent to the question and will be answered below.



Whose nose WILL (not MIGHT or COULD) get bent out of shape? I don't know of any.

Fails the reasonable test.



While the White House is public property, it is treated as private property since the general public has no automatic right to be there. As such the White House has the right to decide who comes in and what they carry. The right to carry a firearm does not supercede another's right to control their private property

Passes the reasonableness test.



Another multipart question.

High school student: Assuming this is an age related question, same answer as the 10 year old.
Fail.

Carry submachine gun: Whose nose is bent out of shape? Remember, there is a higher standard than merely being annoyed or offended. The question also specified CARRYING, not USING.
Fail.

In class: Similar to the White House question. The school has the right to define the conditions upon which a person is allowed to enter.
Pass.



The public street is there for all of the public to use. Target shooting would require building backstops and other construction to make it suitable for use as such and safe for those next to the street. That would interfere with the public's use of the street, so other's noses are definitely impacted.
Pass.



Absolutely, and was common practice by other companies prior to 1968.
Fail.



Another 2 part question:
Drug crimes: should be done away with, so that category of person disappears.
Fail.

Buy sell 100 Glocks: Buying and selling private property has no affect on anyone else's nose.
Fail.



Carrying a weapon on a mode of public transportation is no more an impact on others' noses as carrying anyplace else in public.
Fail.



We have somehow allowed the notion to persist that it is worse to be shot to death than beaten, stabbed, strangled, or anything else. It isn't. We have surrendered the principle that guns (an inanimate object) is somehow 'bad'. The banners have run with this. "You can't be opposed to banning ____, you yourself have said they are exceptionally dangerous".

Whose nose is impacted by not enhancing a penalty? The punishment should fit the crime, regardless of the weapon used.
Fail.


I have a few 'Passes' in there, but other than prisoners and involuntary commitments (which aren't applicable since they don't have full rights), they all fall under the principle that everyone has the right to control their own property and you can't prevent the use of public property. So I will claim I am still consistent. :)
 
I wouldn't call 6 pages (and counting) of conversation and debate without getting locked a massive fail.

The premise of the OP was a massive fail. The saving grace is that this discourse points that out!

I never mentioned getting anything locked and I'm glad it didn't. Forum mods everywhere (especially here) do that way too often.

Debate is essential and it should promoted.
 
A question or two -

If we agree to "no 30 round magazines" how do we with any intellectual integrity object to the possession of three 10 round magazines? And do we expect anti-gunners will be satisfied with a ban on 30 rounders but OK with 20 or 25 round magazines?

2nd Amendment attorney Gura (of Heller fame) has stated the courts do not like arbitrary numbers. He suggests that courts may accept a "form and function" approach. Meaning that a Glock or M&P pistol work naturally with 15 to 20 round magazines. ARs come with anything from 15 to 30 rounders. There's nothing grotesque, so to speak, about a BHP with a 17 round magazine. Gura further asserts that someone living in the woods away from society (like me when I'm in OR :)) can be reasonably expected to benefit from a 30 or 50 or 100 round magazine.

I don't necessarily agree with his position however the legal theory, in that it rejects an arbitrary number, is interesting. Magazine restrictions are on their face abhorrent.

Bingo, bango, bongo.

That's why this "mag capacity" logic is so ridiculous and juvenile.

If you can pick one arbitrary number for how many rounds a magazine should have, then so can I!

If "safety" is directly proportional to fewer rounds in the magazine, then 30 is "safer" than 40. And 20 is "safer" than 30. And 10 is "safer" than 20.

And so on and so forth. It's not a serious way of thinking. It's a primitive, emotional argument to satisfy people who hate the Constitution and make certain people "feel good."
 
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And so on and so forth. It's not a serious way of thinking. It's a primitive, emotional argument to satisfy people who hate the Constitution.

Nonsense and more nonsense. Eventually state legislatures, Congress, then the courts will decide on this issue, extra-capacity magazines, which is how our Constitutional system is designed to work.
 
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And so on and so forth. It's not a serious way of thinking. It's a primitive, emotional argument to satisfy people who hate the Constitution.

Nonsense and more nonsense. Eventually state legislatures, Congress, then the courts will decide on this issue, extra-capacity magazines, which is how our Constitutional system is designed to work.

Thinking that a 30 round magazine is "safer" than a 40 round magazine is nonsense. Many states HAVE decided on this. The vast, vast majority have no "magazine restrictions." Even for "extra super duper" ones.
 
Today. What about tomorrow?

Just one killing (JFK) led to GCA '68.

Yeah, enough emotional, nonsensical people got enough power to implement more restrictions as a reaction to an emotional event.

Logic, facts, and the constitution are the same no matter who gets killed!

Are you saying we should change our positions based on random acts of deranged murderers??
 
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