Sig found liable for gun discharge

[ladder13]

Jury finds Sig Sauer liable for pistol shooting; awards $2.3M in damages | New Hampshire Public Radio

Trigger safety?

A jury found Sig Sauer was negligent for Langs injuries due to the design of the weapon, including that it lacked a trigger safety. Sig Sauers P320 pistol is one of the countrys most popular guns, with more than 2.5 million sold, according to court records.

 

[Onomea]

As the article states, the 320 (M17, M18), with a manual safety, is the US military's current sidearm.

Does the US military currently teach to carry with a round in the chamber or does it teach to rack after drawing?

 

[A10]

That's a scary finding. Few firearms have a "trigger safety", no revolvers have one. If this stands it opens the door for product liability cases for all firearms manufacturers.

Some years back Glock was sued for NDs. Turned out in most cases something snagged the trigger when it was being reholstered. As we all know, Glock kind of invented the "trigger safety"....

 

[murphydog]

This has been discussed here and elsewhere. The lever/pivot/tab in the trigger is supposed to act as a drop safety, not to prevent inadvertent actuation of the trigger (as in when something catches the trigger, as in the Glock situation).

The issue seems to be the trigger in the P320 'appears' to be prone to marginal engagement with the striker mechanism in some situations. Hence the videos of guns going off in holsters without being touched. Don't know if an added trigger tab would prevent this.

 

[WCCPHD]

Never trust you money, freedom or life to twelve people too stupid to get off jury duty. (Or people who actually want to serve on juries)

Not speaking of decent people who see it as a duty, but too many today are social justice warriors and because it involved an evil gun, had their minds made up before any evidence was presented.

 

[Golddollar]

I was involved in a product liability case involving an accidental shooting. The allegation was that our client made a defective gun because it would fire without the magazine in it. Besides the fact that our client didn't make the gun in question, I got to handle it and tested all the safety features and found the magazine safety did work perfectly. I swore out an affidavit in support of a Motion to Dismiss and got our client out of the case before trial.

 

[DWalt]

Never trust you money, freedom or life to twelve people too stupid to get off jury duty. (Or people who actually want to serve on juries)

Not speaking of decent people who see it as a duty, but too many today are social justice warriors and because it involved an evil gun, had their minds made up before any evidence was presented.

Based on my limited experience, I agree. It seems that anyone in the jury pool who seems to have a single working brain cell during voir dire is eliminated from duty. I have been called for jury duty at least a dozen times, never selected even once. My most insane experience involved a trial in municipal court involving a guy who didn't have a license for his dog. Can anyone imagine holding a full jury trial for such an offense? I wasn't selected to be on that jury either. And I really wanted to be on that jury.

 

[LVSteve]

I'm hardly shocked. It was a jury decades ago that said Audi was at fault for "uncommanded acceleration" events, rather than the more likely explanation that the drivers were pushing on the wrong pedal.

In this particular case I'd be more inclined to believe that Sig was at fault as I find their design overcomplex, but maybe that's just me.

 

[fordson]

As the article states, the 320 (M17, M18), with a manual safety, is the US military's current sidearm.

Does the US military currently teach to carry with a round in the chamber or does it teach to rack after drawing?

Can’t comment on today’s SOP, but back when I was active, SOP when under arms (security details, not in a combat zone) was empty chamber, loaded magazine, rifle or pistol. During DS/DS, while technically in a combat zone, as support units we carried sidearms empty chamber, loaded mags. Same for flight crews.

 

[Frailer]

As the article states, the 320 (M17, M18), with a manual safety, is the US military's current sidearm.

Does the US military currently teach to carry with a round in the chamber or does it teach to rack after drawing?

There is no universal doctrine. Weapon condition depends on unit SOPs and the specific environment. In Kosovo (peacekeeping) my unit’s SOP was magazine inserted, chamber empty. In Iraq we had a round in the chamber, with the safety engaged.

 

[Doug M.]

The serious flaws with the 320 and drop safety were very heavily discussed on another forum to which I belong. Some pretty savvy people I respect expressed the highest level of misgivings. This is pretty old news, but one probably has to travel in certain circles to be aware of it.

As for the military adopting it, one issue is that the sidearm is a tertiary weapon for most. They did cut down the FBI test that resulted in adopting the Gen 5 Glocks because of some questionable reasons. The 320 did not even come close to passing the FBI test.

 

[Mainsail]

Can’t comment on today’s SOP, but back when I was active, SOP when under arms (security details, not in a combat zone) was empty chamber, loaded magazine, rifle or pistol. During DS/DS, while technically in a combat zone, as support units we carried sidearms empty chamber, loaded mags. Same for flight crews.

I flew C-141s from 1986 until 2002. Aircrew SOP was 6 rounds loaded in the S&W Model 15. When the M9 came along, SOP was full magazine, first round chambered, de-cock, safety off.

 

[HardToHandle]

The serious flaws with the 320 and drop safety were very heavily discussed on another forum to which I belong. Some pretty savvy people I respect expressed the highest level of misgivings. This is pretty old news, but one probably has to travel in certain circles to be aware of it.

Yes. A certain forum has 100+ pages of largely well informed discussion. The salient point is multiple police agencies have suffered “uncommanded discharges”, including at least three caught on video.

The video part is important, because they make it clear holstered p320s were firing with no hands involved.

The issue SIG is dealing with is not solely deep pocket motivated, it is their deceptive approach of “voluntary upgrade” for civilian/police handguns while the manufacturer knew there was a problem in their products. On top of the uncommanded discharges, SIG significantly modified their P320 sear engagement in the development of M17/18 tender with the US government (presumably to avoid False Claims Act liability).

Supposed SIG has ironed out the P320 trigger sear issues. Some agencies that paused P320 rollouts, such as Texas DPS, are reportedly putting the “upgraded” guns on the street.

There is a much bigger element that SIG’s business practices have proved to be a fairly alluring interest to the liability bar. SIG has settled lots of P320 cases with confidentiality clauses but they look very vulnerable. That is a big deal for (1) a major DOD small arms supplier and (2) a leading US firearms company. Little good will come of this.

 

[AJ]

As the article states, the 320 (M17, M18), with a manual safety, is the US military's current sidearm.

Does the US military currently teach to carry with a round in the chamber or does it teach to rack after drawing?

When I was on active duty there were no rounds chambered when carrying a handgun (M1911A1/M9). THere was one unit that did carry a round in the chamber and that was the Security Force Battalions Fleet Anti-Terriorist Security Teams (F.A.S.T.).

 

[hardluk1]

I not a fan of sig p320 . When they first came out there were no thumb safeties and they were not drop safe but it took close to 7 years before sig came up with a a recall , No that was called an Up Date not a recall to make them drop safe supposedly ! Maybe there still not really drop safe ! Then siggly came out with the p320-X5 and other new models or changed models like the new compact version about the same time they dropped several cartridge options but those new "compacts that had the shorter 3.6" sub compact barrels with the same poor chamber support in the the 9mm that had some of the worse chamber support found with heavily bulged brass with standard pressure ammo . Then getting siggly to fix those barrels took some time for them to admit they had a problem . I dumped the p320 I had do to lack of trust to proof test a firearm then fix a real issue not try to pass it off as " in spec " until many folks showed it to be real so I'll never at that own another sig .

If you do not believe search sig p320X5 bulged brass photos and treads .

 

[BE Mike]

I have a Sig M17, Sig P320 Compact, Sig P320x Compact, Sig P365 and Sig P322. I've shot the 320's the most (thousands of rounds). I shot the P365 1,000 rounds of factory ammo before I started carrying it. I never had a problem that can be attributed to the guns. No bulged empties and I have reloaded 9mm cases multiple times. I put more stock in my personal experience than internet opinions. It would appear to me that juries are mostly comprised of people who are ignorant of firearms. The same goes for attorneys and judges. The majority of police officers have only a rudimentary understanding of their firearms. No other firearm manufacturers who have recalls have taken so much heat as Sig. I suspect a lot of it is from Glock fanboys and I suspect maybe even interindustry led rumor mills. No matter, there are always anti-Sig folks ready to pounce at a moment's notice.

 

[Alton]

My first trip to visit my daughter and new son in law in New Hampshire, the wife and daughter stayed in the vehicle while son in law and I went inside. (Wife’s mistake) I came out with a sales receipt enjoying the Sales Tax Free Purchase of a P320 X5 Legion sent to my FFL. It is a dream to shoot at targets, light weight trigger, a slightly heavy gun so quick follow up shots. I do not keep a round in the chamber and I do not ever carry it for protection. It is very accurate and fun to shoot.
Growing up in a small town in South Texas we started with one police officer/ combo dog catcher and it grew to a police chief with three or four police officers. After receiving new pistols they decided to try and find out which one was the quickest draw, after a few times they increased their speed until ones gun went off and he went to the hospital with a crease in his leg from an accidently discharged weapon. I only knew about this because my father was on the city council and the police chief had to explain the hospital bill.
The above attached story kind of fits mine, and with the right jury any one can be found guilty or not guilty of something. Businesses in Deep South Texas deal with this all the time.

 

[sigp220.45]

I like Sigs. I carried my P220 for 25 years in the FBI, and I carry a Sig P210 Carry Model often.

A couple of years ago my kids got me a .357 Sig 320 for my birthday. I have a spare .40 barrel and I shoot it a lot, but I don’t carry it. I think the jury got it right, and Sig is going to have to keep shelling out the dough until there is some kind of fix. I don’t want to re-litigate the case, but the video evidence is pretty compelling. Somehow these guns can go off in the holster if the circumstances are just right.

Just fix it.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Jury finds Sig Sauer liable for pistol shooting; awards $2.3M in damages | New Hampshire Public Radio

SIG Sauer's line of handguns began in 1975 with the SIG Sauer SIG P220. In the late 1970s and early 1980s I was impressed with the quality.

Fast forward forty years and I am not impressed anymore. They want to compete with Glock and keep the price point down. Its like putting a Cadillac badge on a Yugo.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

As the article states, the 320 (M17, M18), with a manual safety, is the US military's current sidearm.

Does the US military currently teach to carry with a round in the chamber or does it teach to rack after drawing?

The military has been making bad decisions for many years because of conflict of interests. The Generals and Admirals are all just looking to get rich. Recently Military dot com had a story about a Navy Admiral who makes $500K annually from a corporation that he assisted to get a contract when he was still on active duty.

Military Industrial Complex making a new generation of billionaires while sacrificing another generation of young men and women. JMHO.