Sig P320 AD issues

[LCC]

Deep dive article in the Washington Post about Sig P320 AD's, in which those reported on claimed they never touched the trigger.:
"More than 80 people, including police officers, allege they were shot by their SIG Sauer P320 pistols. Some have lost work, live in pain after serious injuries.
The injured included both casual and expert firearm owners whose guns fired in their homes and offices and in busy public places like casinos and parking lots. In two cases, the guns went off on school grounds.
Interviews with more than a dozen victims, video recordings, and a review of thousands of pages of court documents and internal police records reveal a pattern of discharges that were alleged to have occurred during routine movements. These have included the holstering or unholstering of the P320, climbing out of vehicles and walking down stairs. In several cases, records and videos show, the gun fired when a victim’s hand was nowhere near it.

 

[petepeterson]

Not the kind of free advertising they were hoping for, I'm sure.
Is this with all different models of the 320? Meaning the FCU? There's about 50 different models it seems.

No reports on the P365? Is that a similar set-up?

 

[murphydog]

Old news, I recall a fix was implemented.

Not a criticism of the OP, but I wonder what the motivation of one of the most notorious anti-gun newspapers in the country might be to publish an article on this topic. ?

 

[Onomea]

Sig P320 Spontaneous Discharge Issue

This is a WaPo article discussing reports that the P320 is susceptible to accidental/spontaneous — not just negligent — discharge.

While the WaPo is anti-gun, most of the sources within the article seem pretty credible.

...Milwaukee police officers wrote 10 memos to their superiors detailing their worries about the P320’s susceptibility to unintentional discharge, public records obtained from the Milwaukee Police Department show. One memo said the department had seen a “two-and-a-half times increase in accidental discharges” with the P320 compared with the previous five-year period, when the department used Smith & Wesson pistols.


On July 30, 2020, SIG Sauer representatives hosted a conference with the agency in an effort to answer questions directly.


A memo summarizing the meeting, which was attended by four SIG Sauer representatives, including Toner, the P320’s designer, shows that it only increased officers’ alarm.


“When asked if the Sig Sauer P-320 pistol can discharge spontaneously without a trigger manipulation (jostling, being struck, dropped),” Capt. James MacGillis wrote in the summary shortly after the meeting, “the representatives did not answer the question, even when asked twice.

”
SIG Sauer did not respond to this assertion in its written response to questions....

I'm a revolver man, m'self... Link below:

https://wapo.st/400uBzm

 

[Fishinfool]

I admit I am no engineer, but I take some of this with a grain of salt..

I remember when Audi automobiles would suddenly accelerate on their own - Owners swore up and down it was true, but was proven to be operator error.

Glocks, when they first became popular, used to fire on their own as well, usually when being holstered & unholstered, some times with no human contact at all. Again, human error or a badly designed holster.

I don't know enough about the P320's internals to say it cant happen, but my gut feeling is because of the guns recent widespread use and military issue, it is experiencing the same issues as Glock...

Larry

 

[petepeterson]

I read the article. Thank you for posting.
Seems the problems are with the guns that were fixed.

That's a lot of recorded instances of a similar event. 80 is only the number of injuries. OTOH, why is it only some of them, and not all?

The article does beat to death the point that there's no regulation or standard of consumer product safety.

 

[LCC]

As to the source of the article, I read across both sides of the aisle, preferring to make up my own mind what is true and what is simply tribal partisanship. Primarily scan the WP for it's in depth reporting on the Ukraine War.
The article reports on multiple incidents from trained LEO's being injured by incidents in which they state the trigger was never touched.
As to the why these AD's are occuring:

"SIG Sauer has faced claims that the P320 malfunctions since at least 2017, when accounts surfaced that the gun could fire when dropped. A video released in August that year by a Texas gun store showed the gun firing consistently when dropped at certain angles. The impact caused the trigger to depress, the video showed.
A day after the video was released, SIG Sauer announced it would modify the pistol’s design and launched a voluntary upgrade program in which customers could return their guns to have redesigned components installed. Reporting by CNN later showed SIG Sauer had been notified twice about instances in which the gun fired when dropped, roughly a year before warning the public of the problem. One of those notices was from the U.S. Army.

The P320 is different from many striker-fired guns in that it is effectively fully cocked at rest. The pull of its trigger does not draw the striker backward any meaningful distance. It simply releases it.
The gun’s primary internal safety, called a safety lock tab, is designed to block the striker from springing forward to detonate a round. With minimal pressure to the trigger, this tab is pushed upward and out of the way of the striker. Some critics of the P320’s design have alleged that the ease with which this safety is disengaged makes the gun more vulnerable to unintentional discharges.

According to an October report from James Tertin, a gunsmith at the Minnesota-based gun manufacturer Magnum Research, this is a highly unusual and “uniquely dangerous” configuration, which is found in only two models of SIG Sauer pistols. (Magnum Research is a subsidiary of the gunmaker Kahr Arms, which also produces pistols sold in the United States.)Tertin opined that the P320’s primary internal safety was too easily disabled. He found that pulling the trigger 0.075 inches — about the width of a nickel — would disengage it, leaving the pistol vulnerable to accidental discharge.
“Given the very minimal trigger movement … required to disengage the internal safeties, a foreign object or pressure against the holster can leave the gun unacceptably vulnerable to a discharge without an intentional trigger pull.”

 

[xfarfuldog]

I was a Sig police armorer years ago before the advent of the 320. I presently own a 365 and P 220. My last issued duty gun was a P228. I really like Sigs. I read this article myself this morning. The AD's keep happening even after the recall. One of my friends is a factory Sig armorer. He will not own a 320 and has advised me to not to either.

An officer in my department had an AD with a Glock 21. Glock did have other reports of AD's. They fixed them and it has not been a problem since.

 

[erikpolcrack]

There are 12 pages of discussion about this problem over on SIGforum, listed as 'Sig P320 Accidental Discharge Problem'. Discussion goes round and round, but there was a consensus that those P320s with manual safeties will not discharge if the safety is engaged. Same goes for P365s. I have two dogs in this fight, since I own a relatively new P320(M17) and a P365XL, both with manual safeties.

 

[fmflorida]

So SIG issued a fix for this a long while back but it was simple physics or operator error.

The original triggers themselves did not weigh much, thus if dropped in a specific way, it could go off due to the physics involved. Adding a heavier trigger solved this issue.

Further, a lot of these "discharges" were caused by people "playing" with their firearms in their holsters or while removing the gun from the holster.

One instance I recall reading most of was a female cop whos gun "just went off" in her purse.....turns out she was carrying it loaded, no holster, just floating around in her purse.....yet its the firearms fault.

I would have no issued with a P320 if I had to have/carry/use one....but Im not a polymer/striker fired fan.

 

[Malysh]

Actually, SIG lightened the upgraded triggers. The original triggers were heavier.

I don't blame the poster, but this is all ancient B.S.

Everybody is looking to sue for that "pot o gold at the end of the rainbow";
looking to get rich quick.

I don't like the lady, but even Gwynneth Paltrow was sued by a jerk who ran into her on a bunny ski slope. What a culture we live in!

I have two SIG P320s and a P365. I carry the 320s every day until the hottest weather, nary a problem or hitch.
I do recommend checking your holster before you stick any striker fire gun in it, regardless of make.

 

[VictorLouis]

I am pretty sure I've linked it before. There is PD surveillance video of two detectives exiting their car. The one in the back seat has files in one hand, and a cuppa-Joe in the other. Takes a couple steps, and BANG. Looks down at his holster in utter disbelief. Sorry, it's not simply an issue of booger-hooks on the bang-switches.

 

[LVSteve]

My money is on it's damn near impossible to design a holster with good retention that is safe with a dingus free trigger.

 

[TJm15.38]

I've never felt comfortable with handguns like the Glock and Sig in which the striker is cocked and ready to fire with any trigger engagement intentional or unintentional. I thought Walther had the best solution with the P99AS anti-stress trigger which allowed you to decock the striker after chambering a round enabling a simulated double-action pull of the trigger for the first shot which would re-cock the stricker and release it with a full trigger pull. Every shot after would be like "single action" with a lighter trigger pull. Even though the pistol had no safety, the ability to de-cock the striker made an accidental discharge much less probable.

 

[10Mad]

What is not mentioned is how police departments purchased new guns but not the appropriate holsters for the new Sigs. There are many reports of poor fitting holsters for their previous models that were “close enough” but put pressure on the trigger when holstered. Add in the typical physical activity of a police officer bouncing around and that makes a bad combination. Sometimes things aren’t quite as black and white as they appear.

 

[Doug M.]

There are two different potential issues. One was the drop safety flaw; the pistol was not drop safe. That has been addressed as far as I know. The other is just "going off" such as described above. I have not followed this closely as I really have no interest in the platform.

This was heavily discussed on a forum comprised mostly of serious LE/mil types. While there is a decent chance that some of these are NDs due to handling errors, there is no real question that the design is flawed. I know some of the people reporting the problems personally and they are credible.

I have no idea if the 365 suffers from the same problems, or if the different dimensions preclude that.

 

[LCC]

I have no idea if the 365 suffers from the same problems, or if the different dimensions preclude that.

When I researched the 365 pre-purchase:

"the P365 features an array of internal safeties protecting the gun against unintentional discharges, including a disconnector drop safety and a firing pin block (similar to a Series 80 1911)."

 

[CRT2]

The statement the “design is flawed” means nothing unless the design flaw can be “described” and replicated. All we have is the inanimate object fires itself. Issues of using holsters not designed for the pistol, foreign objects moving the trigger and possible lack of attention of the user have been identified. Also, it doesn’t matter how “super” a user is, people make mistakes.

Yes, I own a Model 17, two 17-320s and two X Carry. No issues, however, I do not carry them every day and I only use he SIG holsters designed for them.

Could it be a design issue - yes. Opinions do not prove design issues.

 

[Nick B]

I have a couple of 320’s that have thumb safety’s like a 1911. And since I shoot 1911’s I always have the safety on when my 320 is in the holster .
Just habit carried over .

 

[LCC]

Sig is a global arms manufacturer. If it has a problematic handgun, it should be either modifed so it's not, or replaced with a new model, as it doesn't matter if it's the holsters, handling, etc. when a handgun is having a much higher rate of AD's something needs to change.
Gun owners are no different than drivers, in which many are a hazard whether behind the wheel or handling a firearm.