Sights off or trigger?

[edraven]

try sticking one of those barrel bore sights in, and see if the dot lines up with your sights

 

[M29since14]

What happens to your sight picture when you dry fire? That's likely the answer to your question. If the front sight dips, you know trigger control is at least part of your problem. If it stays put, it's likely you have a gun problem.

 

[Stratajema]

After my review of the previous posts here, I do not believe there is a problem with the slide, barrel, trigger or sights. The problem is likely an out of spec locking block. Send the gun back to S&W. BTW, the M&P stock sights use sight picture #3 (combat hold). Make sure you test the gun using that sight picture with quality ammo before calling S&W.

 

[walkin' trails]

Contact S&W's warranty service and make arrangements to send it back before spending any money to modify anything. When you discuss the problem with them, also mention your problems with the trigger also. Maybe they'll take care of both issues. I have three M&Ps, and sort of expected my FS 9 not to shoot anything tighter than "combat" accurate groups in factory stock configuration, but all three pistols consistently hit POA with the original factory sights.

 

[Big Dad]

M&P Shield 9mm

Hey guys, I have to tell you, mine is the same. It shoots hi and left. I have tried different ammo and its the same. I bought my son a shield 9mm too, so we were at the range yesterday and Both guns shoot like Poo Poo. I pulled out a Para LDA C6 45acp that I never shot, and put six in the bulls ring right off the bat. I have been shooting for well over 40 years and this 9mm is the worst pistol I have ever shot. Do I want to spend a bunch of money to "Make it Better". Why are so many folks having a hard time hitting the mark?
Big Dad

 

[ATF]

High and left? That's a new one

 

[Rastoff]

Why are so many folks having a hard time hitting the mark?
Big Dad

No one likes to hear this, but it's usually poor shooting form.

People that have been shooting for a long time, develop habits. Some are good and some are bad. Add a significantly different trigger and those habits are amplified. If it's a better trigger, most will shoot better. If it's a poor trigger, most will shoot worse.

In the case of the M&P, the trigger is not great. But remember, you bought a cheap gun. It's unreasonable to expect a great trigger. I'm not minimizing the cost of the M&P. $350-$550 is a fair amount of money. However, in the world of handguns, these are at the low end of the price spectrum. To get this price, they mass produce. This means that tolerances have to be a little more generous so they will all fit and be reliable.

The biggest problem with the M&P trigger is the over-travel. It has a lot of over-travel and this can pull the shot off line. There are several ways to fix this and most are inexpensive, but require some skill with fabrication and mechanical things. By far the easiest "fix" is to install the Apex Forward Set Sear(FSS) kit. Of course then people complain that they shouldn't have to spend money...blah blah blah.


All of this can be fixed for $0 if the shooter works on their form.

• If the trigger is pressed straight back, rather than at an angle.
• If focus is on the front sight.
• If the trigger finger is the only one that moves.
• If the grip is firm, but not "gorilla" tight.
• If the shooter doesn't press with the heel of the hand.
• If...
• If...

Then the claim is made, "But I've been shooting for 30 decades and this is the ONLY pistol I've ever had trouble with." Usually this comment is made by those that have been happy with groupings that aren't really all that small, but surround the approximate center of the target. Heck, I even know one guy who shot better groups with his M&P, but because they weren't in the exact center, proclaimed the M&P to be a horrible gun.

Some of these claims are legitimate problems with the gun. S&W has fixed every one that I know of. Most of these issues have turned out to be the shooter though. Look through the posts here and you will find hundreds (I'm not exaggerating) of posts where the Point of Impact (POI) was corrected by improved form rather than adjusting the sights or changing the trigger.

I believe people when they say they've been shooting for years. I believe them when they say the M&P is causing them trouble. Even so, we tend to want a mechanical fix to a software problem. Sorry, if that were possible we'd all have Olympic gold medals.

What I find most amazing is that folks don't shoot from a rest and then claim the gun is inaccurate. Then, when a rest is suggested, they refuse to shoot from a rest. It's like they know the error is being generated by the shooter and are afraid to admit it. Why is it such a horrible thing to shoot the gun from a rest? That is the only way to be sure it's the gun and not the shooter.

 

[Rastoff]

Let me add one more thing; size.

A lot of these complaints are from those that own the Shield. This is a very small gun. Because of this it is more difficult to handle. Thus, it is more difficult to be accurate with it.

This particular issue is not unique to the Shield. I see a lot of students with the Bersa .380Auto. This is also a tiny gun and everyone I've seen with one, struggles to shoot a small group.

So, size is the next factor beyond trigger.

 

[WR Moore]

I helped transition several hundred folks to the M&P. The better shooters all had a tendency to shoot low, left if they were right handed (low, right if left handed). The issue, as several have said, is a different trigger than many were used to. As a result, the trigger stroke ended in a ferocious yank. Oddly (to me) the better shooters, including me, had more difficulty adapting to the trigger action. But we did.

Now then, as to the "crappy trigger". The M&P trigger, after some wearing in, is very like that of a superbly tuned double action revolver. I'll also note that the M&P, as indicated by name, was intended as a service pistol. In other words, it is expected to function in adverse conditions with sometime questionable care and to be safe in the hands of trained individuals who might well be in the grip of adrenalin boosted muscles. A great many people learn to do quite well with the stock trigger-as they prove in mandated qualification. In short, if you were expecting the trigger of a Hammerli free pistol, you were over optimistic.

As a comparison, if you can find a stock GI issue 1911, I expect you'll find the trigger to be heavy, creepy and with considerable overtravel. Every example I ever handled did-unless the sear was excessively worn.

 

[MyDads38]

I shot a lot of revolvers back in my days with D.O.C. and on the pistol team. Semi auto's were the "new kid" to me back then.

Stopped shooting for several years, but am back to it and enjoying it very much! When I bought my new Ruger SR1911, I just knew the sights were "off" since I didn't shoot it as well as my Model 10 38 or the Ruger P89DC 9mm. So I borrowed a brass punch and was all set to start "adjusting" my sights. Then I read a few threads, started asking myself about my shooting basics, and decided to shoot a few more times before adjusting anything. So glad I did!

Using a rest, concentrating on the basics of breathing, trigger pull, sight alignment and sight picture brought my poor groups back to center hits and sometimes small 5 shot groups that even impressed me! Low/Left, vertical stringing and shotgun patterns are all a thing of the past. I'm no bullseye shooter, but 2" groups out to 10 yards and 2 1/2" - 3" at 15 yards off hand is the norm for me. And not just 5 shot strings, but 50 rounds plus into the same group. Not target accuracy, but plenty good for self defense, even with my old eyes!

All my handguns can shoot to this accuracy level, even my newest acquisitions. SD9VE, SD40VE, M&P FS 9mm, M&P FS 45 and Ruger SR1911. With someone else holding the guns, they'd probably shoot even better! LOL And they're all stock to boot...

 

[Big Dad]

No one likes to hear this, but it's usually poor shooting form.

People that have been shooting for a long time, develop habits. Some are good and some are bad. Add a significantly different trigger and those habits are amplified. If it's a better trigger, most will shoot better. If it's a poor trigger, most will shoot worse.

In the case of the M&P, the trigger is not great. But remember, you bought a cheap gun. It's unreasonable to expect a great trigger. I'm not minimizing the cost of the M&P. $350-$550 is a fair amount of money. However, in the world of handguns, these are at the low end of the price spectrum. To get this price, they mass produce. This means that tolerances have to be a little more generous so they will all fit and be reliable.

The biggest problem with the M&P trigger is the over-travel. It has a lot of over-travel and this can pull the shot off line. There are several ways to fix this and most are inexpensive, but require some skill with fabrication and mechanical things. By far the easiest "fix" is to install the Apex Forward Set Sear(FSS) kit. Of course then people complain that they shouldn't have to spend money...blah blah blah.


All of this can be fixed for $0 if the shooter works on their form.

• If the trigger is pressed straight back, rather than at an angle.
• If focus is on the front sight.
• If the trigger finger is the only one that moves.
• If the grip is firm, but not "gorilla" tight.
• If the shooter doesn't press with the heel of the hand.
• If...
• If...

Then the claim is made, "But I've been shooting for 30 decades and this is the ONLY pistol I've ever had trouble with." Usually this comment is made by those that have been happy with groupings that aren't really all that small, but surround the approximate center of the target. Heck, I even know one guy who shot better groups with his M&P, but because they weren't in the exact center, proclaimed the M&P to be a horrible gun.

Some of these claims are legitimate problems with the gun. S&W has fixed every one that I know of. Most of these issues have turned out to be the shooter though. Look through the posts here and you will find hundreds (I'm not exaggerating) of posts where the Point of Impact (POI) was corrected by improved form rather than adjusting the sights or changing the trigger.

I believe people when they say they've been shooting for years. I believe them when they say the M&P is causing them trouble. Even so, we tend to want a mechanical fix to a software problem. Sorry, if that were possible we'd all have Olympic gold medals.

What I find most amazing is that folks don't shoot from a rest and then claim the gun is inaccurate. Then, when a rest is suggested, they refuse to shoot from a rest. It's like they know the error is being generated by the shooter and are afraid to admit it. Why is it such a horrible thing to shoot the gun from a rest? That is the only way to be sure it's the gun and not the shooter.

Ok, I did myself a favor just to see what was really up and shot the shield off a rest. As well I took out another "Small" pistol to compare (Ruger LC 380) that has an equally crappy trigger. LC380 takes the cake and the Shield, well it still shoots the same. I even had someone else have a go at it just for kicks, same results, and thats from off a rest.

 

[Rastoff]

If you shot it while using a rest, and it still hits high/left, then it's most likely a gun issue. Send it back to S&W for repair.

I wasn't attacking you Big Dad. It's just that we hear this all the time and mostly it turns out to be the shooter. I've had several students in my class that ask how to adjust their sights. At the range they demonstrate how the gun is shooting off. Then I shoot their gun and miraculously it's hitting very close to point of aim.

So, yeah, sorry if my previous post seemed gruff. I just see this a lot. Good for you for shooting off a rest and verifying the accuracy issue. Now, get that thing off to S&W for repair.

 

[tacreload]

First off let me say I have never really been too consistent at anything. I picked up a 40c about 4 or 5 years ago and I was consistently low and left.The trigger on my particular pistol was pretty smooth out of the box and it has gotten progressively better over the years. Asked about the problem here on the forum and the majority of the responses told me about trigger control and how to deal with it. Well for a change I took someone else's advice and it worked out. It was me the whole time,nothing wrong with the gun. Just takes some time and practice. I am a lousy shot but this thing makes me look pretty good.

 

[bluejeans]

Well I sprung for the apex forward set sear and flat faced trigger and the m&p now shoots wonderfully right into the bullseye.
To those replies on trigger control: I get what you're saying and agree mostly... But not totally. In a way as long as the trigger makes go bang then it works and the rest depends on the shooter. 'Yeah I've got a 50 pound pull cause the trigger mechanism is made of cast concrete... Works great! If you can't hit anything you need to practice you shooting form.'. doesn't cut it for me.
I am a revolver guy. The m&p is my only semi auto and all my other guns, rifles and pistols, have 3-5 pound triggers so I had no interest in retraining myself for the m&p.
My original question 'sights or trigger?' Has now been answered: it was the trigger. I'm happy with it now.
Thanks eyerybody.

 

[RobzGuns]

Good to hear that you're happy with your decision (and outcome).

 

[Rastoff]

Yes, it is trigger control, but, as you say, some triggers just cannot be controlled. I came to the same conclusion as you. I put an Apex FSS in my M&P 45 and haven't looked back. I wish I didn't have to do that, but the difference is dramatic.

I now shoot the M&P almost as well as my 1911.

 

[Sothern Kiwi]

Factory pro 9 5 inch with a home done trigger job being driven by a girl at 15yards with home loads.