Single action revolver for self defense.

[redlevel]

I would never carry a SA revolver as a primary self-defence firearm if I had a choice and I have always had a choice.


It is dangerous to engage in fantasy about such situations. I guarantee that if you ever face a deadly force situation, whatever you are armed with will seem little enough...

I also have the choice, and sometimes, not often but sometimes, I choose to carry a single-action Ruger Vaquero in .45 colt. Several times recently, I have stuck a 4 5/8" Vaq or a 3.5" Vaq in my waistband when running to the convenience store for gas or a coke late at night. I have fired thousands of rounds through these over the last ten years or so, and I am very comfortable with them. Many times I leave the house in my pickup with nothing but a single-shot 12 gauge and a single-action .45 for protection.

I don't believe a person who is familiar with and comfortable with a good single action is engaging in any more fantasies than one who carries a double-stack, de-cocking, supertactical, whacked-out-belch-fire fawty glop special with a spare mag pouch and tactical underdrawers.

Really, if I can't end a fight with six rounds of 255/900fps .45s, I'm probably dead anyhow.

(OKFC05, I don't blame you for your rules in your class. I think a single action revolver in the hands of a novice shooter would be almost as dangerous as a glop)

 

[ContinentalOp]

It's generally been my opinion that each person has to figure out what works best for them when it comes to self-defense tools. I would say that as long as you are very proficient not only in shooting performance but also in safe handling, while under stress, then a SA revolver may be a viable choice. I don't know if he still offers it but I remember Clint Smith offering a SA revolver self-defense course at Thunder Ranch. Confidence in your gun, and particularly your skill with that gun, counts for a lot.

It would not be my choice for a self-defense gun, unless it was the only thing at hand when needed. I'm not comfortable with light trigger pulls, especially on a defensive gun. I had a trigger job done on a 1911 several years ago and I specified a weight of 4.5-5lbs. That was as light as I felt comfortable with. When I had a Glock 23 I used the NY-1 and "-" connector which produced a slightly heavier-than-stock pull with resistance from beginning to end. It's one of the reasons all of my revolvers are DAO with full-power factory springs.

I don't think speed reloading is as big a concern as many people think. I practice it with my guns, but it's not a skill that I think will be needed as much as drawing quickly and getting good accurate hits. However, I can see the speed reloading of a SA revolver being more fumble prone than other designs. If you have the skills to use it under stress, it may not be an issue for you.

I also want to be able to get quick, accurate hits with one hand as well as from awkward positions. I don't think I could do that under stress with a SA revolver. Again, if you can, more power to you.

I'm not an expert on SA revolvers, by far, but I have read that some designs are not capable of handling heavy use. That would be a concern for me, but if I were selecting a SA revolver with self-defense in mind I would make sure to pick a robust design that could withstand a lot of realistic practice, such as something suitable for CAS competition.

Then again, I've always wanted to get a SA revolver, but for me it would be a fun gun rather than a self-defense tool.

 

[old curmudgeon]

I would never carry a SA revolver as a primary self-defence firearm if I had a choice and I have always had a choice. There are many good reasons why law enforcement and military/government agancies don't use SA revolvers for serious work. The weaknesses of the SA for defensive use have been pointed out already. I have several SA's and enjoy shooting and playing with them in activities ranging from plinking to cowboy shooting. But, that is play. If I am using the firearm to defend myself and my loved ones in a deadly force situation, there is no room for playing around with an obsolete design. I want every advantage I can get. I want good sights...Keep your glasses and light with your gun...as well as the ability to rapidly reload if needed. I'll take body armor and a long gun if its available. It is dangerous to engage in fantasy about such situations. I guarantee that if you ever face a deadly force situation, whatever you are armed with will seem little enough...

I am not arguing the point one way or another, but I would like to point out that the LEO would by reason of experience have a different view than an ordinary citizen.

First, although 99% or higher of an LEO's daily contacts are ordinary people who have something like a heavy foot, a headlight out or whatever, a certain percentage of a LEO's contacts or encounters are with people who hate cops. Some have a hate that is an obsession. So obviously any LEO that is not armed to the teeth, body armor and all is taking a chance.

The citizen who is attacked in a shopping center parking lot is not attacked by someone with a crazed hatred of the victim, excluding domestic and similar disputes, but rather by a lowly motivated lazy criminal looking for an easy mark.

It does not take an Uzi to end his interest in that mark.

I repeat that I am not arguing the merits of one weapon over another; I am simply making the point that comparing the weapon required by an LEO to that required by a citizen is worse than apples and oranges.

More like comparing the weapons requirements of infantryman in Afghanistan to the plain clothes detective.

 

[feralmerril]

Thanks old curmudgeon. Truth is theresa and I live in a little old two bed room house, smallest in our neighborhood. My driver is a 2,000 GMC sierra pickup. I accumulated all those guns mostly in my single working days 30-40 years ago. Been refuseing to sell any as the money would be gone in a week and I couldnt tell you where the money went!

 

[daveh75]

Hmmm....this thread is a lot like "this caliber is better than this caliber"....round ball and muzzle loading firearms killed men the world over for hundreds of years....but then again so did sticks and stones, for a heck of a lot longer...just me but more depends on the person holding the weapon than the weapon itself....be safe

 

[old curmudgeon]

Thanks old curmudgeon. Truth is theresa and I live in a little old two bed room house, smallest in our neighborhood. My driver is a 2,000 GMC sierra pickup. I accumulated all those guns mostly in my single working days 30-40 years ago. Been refuseing to sell any as the money would be gone in a week and I couldnt tell you where the money went!

There is another reason to keep them.

If things keep going downhill at the present rate, they may be more valuable for sale, trade or barter than gold coins.

Sooner or later all of the funny money being printed by the federal reserve is going to hit the street and those guns will be more valuable than the printed money.

 

[Jeb21]

It sounds as if the OP is proficient with SA revolvers that is the most important factor for a self defense weapon. My only concern with that style of revolver is finding a model that you can readily conceal.

 

[celticfisherman]

I would venture to bet that those so openly condemn a person for choosing to carry a SA are probably those whose ability to shoot is in deep doubt... I think the term is overcompensating... A tricked out glock or 1911 doesn't make you any better in a gunfight...

And for what it's worth if cops still carried and had to really qualify with revolvers I have a sneaking suspicion more bad guys would be dead... And more cops would be polite. Instead of walking around like robocop...

 

[Larry from Bend]

You asked about "carrying for self defense" and I have been carrying this 44 Special around the farm for the last 6 months or so, and I like it a lot. I used to carry a Model 60 but decided it was a bit underpowered for the kind of animals that have been showing up around here. I could carry my 629 Classic and maybe be a bit better off, but this Special (240 grain bullet @ 1060 fps) is good enough for me. I can shoot it both accurately and quickly. It's generally concealed under a coat -- but it doesn't need to be and isn't in hot weather.

At this stage of my life I'm no longer tormented by fretting over what's "best" but instead realize that most problems have multiple answers. In this case it's what works for me.

PS: On camping trips or road trips I carry my H&K USP in .40 S&W, if there aren't Bears in the area. For the majority of self-defense needs away from the farm, my Model 38 Airweight in my pocket is right for me.

 

[feralmerril]

Larry, I just bought this .44 a couple months ago. I still have to wring it out a little more to see what it likes. It will be my new quad rideing gun, I think.

 

[Will Carry]

Old Crumudgen, you carry that big bore single action wheel gun if you want. I don't think a mugger will make a stand facing off a 44. Maybe it's just me, but big revolvers scare the hell out of me.

 

[tops]

I don't let single-action revolvers into my NRA personal defense classes, and I don't let the double action revolver shooters cock the hammer, because:

1. If you are that proficient in controlling a cocked revolver in a stress situation, you don't need my class.
2. If you aren't, I don't want you cocking a revolver in my class and trying to let the hammer down on a live round for a "no-shoot" situation. It's not the same as using a 1911 with a safety where you don't have to de-cock to holster.

It is your class and you can run it like you want but I don't want to be around anybody that can't safely let the hammer down. Larry

 

[Larry from Bend]

Larry, I just bought this .44 a couple months ago. I still have to wring it out a little more to see what it likes. It will be my new quad rideing gun, I think.

That's a nice Ruger and I'm sure you'll enjoy dialing it in. Everyone I talk to is impressed with their accuracy. Mine isn't fussy about bullets or powder. I use Power Pistol with 200 and 240 grain bullets and H2400 (old stock) with 255 grain HardCasts. You'll most likely find that you need to bottom out the rear sight to get POA and POI to coincide. I did try a taller front sight which was waaaay too tall and filed on it some to regulate it. Here's the front sight height target.

I ended up with the "stock" front sight which shoots 240/255 grain bullets about 2" high @ 25 yards with my loads and a dead-on hold. 200 grainers shoot exactly on @ 25 yards.

Your holster is beautiful. Mine is an old Buchheimer that was for a Ruger 357 that I bought back in '68. I put that leather flap on it as I found that the rear sight on this FlatTop could open up my forearm if it wasn't covered.

My .44 is also my 4-Wheeler companion and rides with me on tractors and horses.

 

[celticfisherman]

You obviously aren't an instructor for beginning students.
Some of them are holding a gun for the first time in their lives, and you have to assume zero skill.

For CHL classes, we do the whole course of fire, dry fire, before anybody loads a gun, and there is always somebody who can't get through the dry fire without assistance.

The range test to be allowed to take the first NRA defense course is he/she has to load the gun and fire at a stationary target without sweeping anybody.

For even more excitement try doing shotgun live fire with 12-year-olds in hunter safety class.

And yes, there are some students I would rather not try to teach.
However, if trained instructors can't bring new people into the shooting sports, then who?

I'm fairly in the corner of I'd rather give them a single action... Your argument really doesn't hold much water it's just personal preference. It's your class like he said but you're also just simply making a decision. And not one based on anything other than opinion.

 

[old curmudgeon]

I'm fairly in the corner of I'd rather give them a single action... Your argument really doesn't hold much water it's just personal preference. It's your class like he said but you're also just simply making a decision. And not one based on anything other than opinion.

Agreed.

You fire one shot from a single action and have to take a specific definite action before you can fire the second.

Now tell me what is more dangerous than a Glock or similar weapon that has just been fired once and in the hands of a truly green student?

How many have fired such a weapon the second time by accident?How many have forgot to engage the safety immediately after firing the first shot?

Or to ask the question another way, how many Glock owners have shot themselves in the leg holstering or unholstering?

How many single action shooters have you heard of shooting themselves in the leg? Excluding cowboy action fast draw shooters.

 

[Frizzman]

I started out as a city cop in the 1970's and was issued a M10HB and carried that revolver for about 5 years until it was replaced with a M64HB. So, before you assume I'm some kid with a love of plastic wondernines think again. I spent most of my LE days with a 5 or six shot .38. I still carry those types much of the time. When I had the opportunity to carry what I wished when working plain clothes I carried my old Colt Combat Commander .45acp and my Charter Undercover .38 in a Bianchi ankle holster. Hicap 9mm's were not a consideration in those days in my part of the LE world.

I am quite aware that the needs of a LEO MAY be different from a typical citizen. But, I also know that if you assume that an agressive criminal will shrink at the sight of your pistol and run away, that is a risky assumption. It seems that there are those who count on that happening. There are many thugs around who are well armed and spend time at the range and are more than willing to use it on you...Particularly if you are a clear threat.

So far as hatred being more of a factor for cops...perhaps. My experience both as a LEO on the street and working as a psychiatric clinician in corrections is that there are plenty of very hostile individuals who hate everybody equally and will attack anyone they dislike or feel to be a threat. Some of these folks will hurt you because they enjoy it. Some will hate you because of the way you look or look at them.

I would rather end up with ammo I don't need than wind up needing what I don't have. If I was willing to go by the statistical risk and not worry about being in an unusual and dangerous situation that I can't forsee then I wouldn't bother going to the trouble of carrying at all. The fact is that you may well face more than one attacker. Circumstances may make taking a single, precise shot very difficult and your big bore SA may need more than one shot to end the attack. I don't go by the philosophy that if my 6 or 6 shots don't end the situation that I might as well be resigned to being executed. Police officers may quickly have backup...not so for most civilians.

I would suggest that anyone who wants to get some idea of what they can do in anything like a real defense situation with their SA should try some IDPA competition with it. Use of cover and the ability to reload efficiently are vital skills. The ability to shoot weak and strong hand is important. Things rarely go as you anticipate. I have learned that well over my good many years of life.

By "fantasies" I mean the scenario you may carry in your mind of how such a confrontation will go. My experience has been that it rarely happens when and how you expect. The behavior of others is unpredictable. My preference is to have as much as I can going in my favor within reason. In my book, that means carrying at the least a good double action revolver or two, loaded with the best ammo I can get with the ability to reload under pressure if needed. I may also chose a 1911 or DAO auto. I have those available.

If others wish to carry a SA or cap and ball revolver or an arquebus for their defense, that's fine with me. If you can save your bacon and not have to rely on mercy from those who have none...Then so be it. I don't make judgements about others' choices of weapons for serious purposes. Speaking for ME...I will leave my SA's to hunting and recreational use.

I believe I have spoken my piece on this topic...Good Luck to All

 

[celticfisherman]

That is a well reasoned response Frizzman.

 

[cmort666]

Definitely not my preference, but better than nothing.

The Rugers are safe to carry with a full cylinder. Authentic SAA replicas are not.

Obviously, reloading is a BIG stumbling block.

I recall an incident a few years ago where a guy went after some holdup men in a store with, I believe, a Remington single-action clone. If I remember correctly, his gun failed during the gunfight, leaving him to actually use the gun like a slip hammer fast draw gun. He prevailed, but it wasn't exactly a confidence inspiring performance by the gun.

A vintage M&P, Official Police, M1917 or New Service? Absolutely. A real or repro single-action? No thanks.

 

[old curmudgeon]

Definitely not my preference, but better than nothing.

The Rugers are safe to carry with a full cylinder. Authentic SAA replicas are not.

Obviously, reloading is a BIG stumbling block.

I recall an incident a few years ago where a guy went after some holdup men in a store with, I believe, a Remington single-action clone. If I remember correctly, his gun failed during the gunfight, leaving him to actually use the gun like a slip hammer fast draw gun. He prevailed, but it wasn't exactly a confidence inspiring performance by the gun.

A vintage M&P, Official Police, M1917 or New Service? Absolutely. A real or repro single-action? No thanks.

As I recall that story, in some manner the trigger guard broke or became bent in such a manner that the trigger was locked in its rearward position. So he thumbed the hammer.

If he had been carrying a Glock, a 1911 or any similar pistol, he would have been shot dead rather than ending up the hero.

So actually a single action saved his life.

 

[imjin138]

When I lived in KFalls Or. I had a CCW permit, I started out carrying a series 70 1911, I was told by many people carrying that coked and locked was way to danerous. Then I had a Det. Spc. was told not the right caliber to small not enough bullets.

Then I switched to a 1917 modified to a 3 inch barrell and that was OK. I have shot CAS, IPSC and bullseye. I go tot he range once a week or so. Do I carry a Single action Ruger now, no but i would feel ok with one. Normally my taste runs to K frame S&Ws or Ruger meduim frame guns.

If I know a fight is coming which has nnever really happened to me in civilian life I think I would grab my Mossberg 590 or M-1 carbine. I posted this because I thought it might be thought provoking.

When I did go looking for trouble like that it was in the military and I carried an M60 and a .45 and yes then I felt well armed.