Smith&Wessons position on 125g 357
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cgt4570
Member
I don't know their stand, but I stick with 158's in my 19 and 66 Models. (actually, it's all I shoot in any of my .357s just to avoid unnecessary wear).
Texas Star
US Veteran
Factory reps admitted to me when the L-frame guns were introduced that the reason for them was that K-Mags were having too many cracked barrels with 125 grain ammo.
That was straight from the horse's mouth.
Later conversations with engineers at ammo plants confirmed that. Higher powder/flame temperatures and more unburned powder grains and other "ejecta" eroded the barrel throats. Powders have changed since then, but 125 grain bullets are loaded hot in most cases, and still leave the case mouth before heavier bullets do, letting more powder burn with the heavier bullets. Thus, there is less ejecta to erode barrel throats. Leading buildup in the forcing cone will exacerbate cracking, too. It increases pressures.
As a gun writer, I have had access to consultants who told me things not available to the public, and this is what they said. I published it in an article some years ago, and this info has since been widely quoted and misquoted on the Net.
Now you know what I learned via a lot of research at the factories. Oh: I was told that 140-145 grain bullets are closer to 158's than to 125's. The men whom I asked were not particularly bothered by someone shooting 140's in K-frames.
However, the M-19 and it's peers were designed for carrying ease. If only occasional .357 ammo is fired in them, they are very effective. But if you plan to shoot a lot of .357 loads, you should own a larger gun. Used with .38 ammo, the M-19/66, et al, endure pretty well.
T-Star
That was straight from the horse's mouth.
Later conversations with engineers at ammo plants confirmed that. Higher powder/flame temperatures and more unburned powder grains and other "ejecta" eroded the barrel throats. Powders have changed since then, but 125 grain bullets are loaded hot in most cases, and still leave the case mouth before heavier bullets do, letting more powder burn with the heavier bullets. Thus, there is less ejecta to erode barrel throats. Leading buildup in the forcing cone will exacerbate cracking, too. It increases pressures.
As a gun writer, I have had access to consultants who told me things not available to the public, and this is what they said. I published it in an article some years ago, and this info has since been widely quoted and misquoted on the Net.
Now you know what I learned via a lot of research at the factories. Oh: I was told that 140-145 grain bullets are closer to 158's than to 125's. The men whom I asked were not particularly bothered by someone shooting 140's in K-frames.
However, the M-19 and it's peers were designed for carrying ease. If only occasional .357 ammo is fired in them, they are very effective. But if you plan to shoot a lot of .357 loads, you should own a larger gun. Used with .38 ammo, the M-19/66, et al, endure pretty well.
T-Star
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Thanks.
It seems with the ammo shortage all that I see available is the 125 gr 357 ammo. I have a few boxes of that stuff and have been hesitant to use it after seeing the information on the web.
It seems with the ammo shortage all that I see available is the 125 gr 357 ammo. I have a few boxes of that stuff and have been hesitant to use it after seeing the information on the web.
Factory reps admitted to me when the L-frame guns were introduced that the reason for them was that K-Mags were having too many cracked barrels with 125 grain ammo.
That was straight from the horse's mouth.
Later conversations with engineers at ammo plants confirmed that. Higher powder/flame temperatures and more unburned powder grains and other "ejecta" eroded the barrel throats. Powders have changed since then, but 125 grain bullets are loaded hot in most cases, and still leave the case mouth before heavier bullets do, letting more powder burn with the heavier bullets. Thus, there is less ejecta to erode barrel throats. Leading buildup in the forcing cone will exacerbate cracking, too. It increases pressures.
As a gun writer, I have had access to consultants who told me things not available to the public, and this is what they said. I published it in an article some years ago, and this info has since been widely quoted and misquoted on the Net.
Now you know what I learned via a lot of research at the factories. Oh: I was told that 140-145 grain bullets are closer to 158's than to 125's. The men whom I asked were not particularly bothered by someone shooting 140's in K-frames.
However, the M-19 and it's peers were designed for carrying ease. If only occasional .357 ammo is fired in them, they are very effective. But if you plan to shoot a lot of .357 loads, you should own a larger gun. Used with .38 ammo, the M-19/66, et al, endure pretty well.
T-Star
stevieboy
Member
ussbang I feel your pain. 158gr magnum rounds are as rare as hens' teeth. I've managed to scrounge a few boxes of them over the past year, but for the most part, have contented myself with firing .38s and .38 +ps from my magnums. I'm not a big fan of 125gr rounds. They kick too hard, they induce flame cutting and, quite honestly, the pain I experiencing shooting them is a sure-fire flinch inducer. A year ago I bought a box of Remington 125gr. JSPs. at a local WalMart. It was probably the very last one they had on their shelves. I still have it. From time to time I think about shooting it and then, say "nah, not worth the discomfort."
Gearhead Jim
Member
Two years ago, I sent a 66-6 to S&W for a trigger job. It came back VERY nice, with a handwritten note that said:
"Sir-
Use .38 Special for practice.
Magnums for carry."
"Sir-
Use .38 Special for practice.
Magnums for carry."
Swab Jockey
US Veteran
"Sir-
Use .38 Special for practice.
Magnums for carry."
This has been my practice for about thirty years. I shoot .38 +P ammo for IDPA and use 125 grain factory for carry.
Use .38 Special for practice.
Magnums for carry."
This has been my practice for about thirty years. I shoot .38 +P ammo for IDPA and use 125 grain factory for carry.
weyerbacher
Member
What about the WWB 357 mag 110 grain JHPs? Does the lighter than 158 grain being bad stuff apply to them as well? I'm not being a dick, I really am wondering as I keep a 66 w/ 2 1/2 barrel as my house gun and don't want to use 125 magnums in it.
MacGuffin
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Good question. Which is worse? 110 grainers or 125 grainers? Or, are they equally bad for K-mags?
That load, to me, is worse than the 125 grain loads in terms of recoil.
MakeMyNight
Member
I'm thinking that 110 gr loads would amplify the situation already prevalent regarding the 125 gr loads.
Light bullets used in magnum loadings generally means high velocity and performance.
If S&W advises heavier bullet weights and moderate charges in their K frame revolvers, that's reason enough for me to follow their advice. ;>)
Light bullets used in magnum loadings generally means high velocity and performance.
If S&W advises heavier bullet weights and moderate charges in their K frame revolvers, that's reason enough for me to follow their advice. ;>)
I would really like to know about the 110 grain loadings as well. I like this round as being more managable in K frame and smaller guns. It is my understanding that this factory load is actually downloaded in power than the 125 grain loads.
roaddog28
Member
The 110 grain rounds still have the same problems as the 125 grain rounds. They are shorter than the factory 158 grain and more unburned power will result. This will contribute to more erosion on the forcing cone. The K frame magnums forcing cone is not as strong as the L frame, N frame or any of the Ruger revolvers. Plain and simple the K frame magnum was designed for carry. Shoot 38 specials for practice any carry 357s for business. And again the round S&W recommended was a 158 gr LSWC 357 round. Unless a person reloads this is a hard round to find.
I shoot very little 357 magnums through my K frame magnums. When I do I can find Blazer 357 157gr HP rounds from Midway, Cabalas and gun stores in my area. The rest of the time I shoot 38 specials.
If I want to shoot the full house 357s I have a 686-2 and a GP100 to do that. Both can handle the recoil better than the lighter K frame.
I would advise anyone that has a K frame magnum to limit the use of 357 rounds in them. After all, you cannot find barrels anymore. Too me there is no use for abusing the finest all around revolver I feel S&W ever made.
Thanks,
Howard
I shoot lots of 357 magnums through my K-frame magnums. I use 158 grain 357's and keep the guns clean. Currently manufactured 125 grain 357 holds no fear either. It's been watered down from what it was in the seventies.
All of mine say 357 Magnum on the barrel. None of mine have shot loose or failed in any way.
If the K-frame is so "weak", why did S&W continue to produce K-frame magnums right alongside the L-frames for thirty years? Regards 18DAI.
All of mine say 357 Magnum on the barrel. None of mine have shot loose or failed in any way.
If the K-frame is so "weak", why did S&W continue to produce K-frame magnums right alongside the L-frames for thirty years? Regards 18DAI.
G.T. Smith
US Veteran
I have to agree with 18DAI. The only other thing I would suggest, is to keep the forcing cone CLEAN as possible. I keep mine spotless. I clean It after every session, sooner when shooting anything below 158 gr.
Peace,
gordon
bobsdad
US Veteran
The last thing I worry about re: the load in my "house gun" is whether it will wear it out. My first priority is what load will be the most effective "stopper". I'm not going to use that house gun and stopper load enough to wear out the forcing cone or any other part of the revolver. The recoil may be an issue, but in cases where it is needed as a "stopper", the recoil is not going to be noticed unless the little woman is emptying it. Practice with 38 Spec. as mentioned before and load her up for defense.
S&W-Keeper
Member
I don't shoot a lot of 125 gr. .357 mag in my K-frames, I try to use the heavier gr. Why I don't know. I have never see a cracked forcing cone. I'll bet that most of you have not either.It seem to me that endshake would be a bigger problem.
RAMS
Member
May I assume that all this talk about the hot 125 grain .357 Mag loads does not apply to Hornady Critical Defense FTX 125 grain .357 Mag loads?
I fired 10 shots of the latter through my carry piece---a 3" Model 360 J Frame with Pach Presentation grips (17 ounces)---with some discomfort, but no pain.
I am recoil sensitive, so it seems the HCD 125 grain Mags are not as punishing as other brands, yet Dick Metcalf (Dec. Shooting Times) clocked the HCD Mags through his 3" bbl at 1388 fps. That's 535 ft lbs!
If that is true, maybe bbl throats would benefit as well, but I'm no pressure engineer.
I fired 10 shots of the latter through my carry piece---a 3" Model 360 J Frame with Pach Presentation grips (17 ounces
)---with some discomfort, but no pain. I am recoil sensitive, so it seems the HCD 125 grain Mags are not as punishing as other brands, yet Dick Metcalf (Dec. Shooting Times) clocked the HCD Mags through his 3" bbl at 1388 fps. That's 535 ft lbs!
If that is true, maybe bbl throats would benefit as well, but I'm no pressure engineer.
Sportsterguy
Member
I like 158 grainers. Speer Gold Dots in that weight have been my round for self defense for years. Fot target practice I use the same weight LSWC's with my handloads watered down to .38's to keep wear and tear down on my K frames. No leading problems and they are fun to shoot plus very accurate. In my younger days I always loaded it with 110 grain .357's. They are a devestating round and my 66 never suffered any damage from them.
I also find that the heavier bullets shoot more accurately out of them snubs.
I also find that the heavier bullets shoot more accurately out of them snubs.
scooter123
Member
One thing that hasn't been mentioned concerning this issue is basic Physics. In that E = 1/2 M x V^2. Quite simply, if pressure is held as a constant, reducing the Mass of the bullet will result in an increase in the Kinetic Energy. IMO it's the increase in Kinetic Energy when the bullet hits the forcing cone that does the damage, NOT unspent powder or lead accumulation. However, I have no doubt powder burn and buildup don't help a bit.
As for the use of 357 Magnums for Defense, IMO it's not a good choice. As noted in some previous posts, it's not a caliber that is easy to shoot well with. Fact is there is a considerable shift in the POI between 357 Magnums and 38 spl.. In addition I've found that when shooting the Magnums I have to really slow down my firing rate to hit well in comparison to the firing rate I can achieve with 38 spl.
IMO, this pretty much negates the old "practice with 38 and use 357 Magnums for Defense" argument. If you only practice with 38 spl., you'll probably MISS with the Magnums. You'll do much better if you shoot what you practice with and 2 or three solid hits with a 38 has proven to be very effective over many years. In addition, there will be less concern with over-penetration and less damage to the hearing.
As for the use of 357 Magnums for Defense, IMO it's not a good choice. As noted in some previous posts, it's not a caliber that is easy to shoot well with. Fact is there is a considerable shift in the POI between 357 Magnums and 38 spl.. In addition I've found that when shooting the Magnums I have to really slow down my firing rate to hit well in comparison to the firing rate I can achieve with 38 spl.
IMO, this pretty much negates the old "practice with 38 and use 357 Magnums for Defense" argument. If you only practice with 38 spl., you'll probably MISS with the Magnums. You'll do much better if you shoot what you practice with and 2 or three solid hits with a 38 has proven to be very effective over many years. In addition, there will be less concern with over-penetration and less damage to the hearing.
AveragEd
Member
I agree, using a load you don't practice with when it matters is like hunting with a different load than the one you sighted your gun in with. But really, handguns and rifles are poor home defense weapons and they're worse with hot loads. You will deafen yourself and the bullets will pass though their target, the hollow plasterboard walls behind it and possibly one of your own family members or into your neighbor's home. A short-barreled shotgun works much better and more safely in that capacity.
Anyway, I bought a new Model 19 in 1974 and shot it a lot, mostly with 38 Specials loaded with 148-grain wadcutters over 3.5 grains of Bullseye powder. But I did run some magnums through it and used the 125-grain loads the most. It didn't take many before fired case extraction became "sticky" and a cylinder of two later, a punch and a mallet were required to get the empties out of the cylinder.
S&W replaced the cylinder twice and a letter accompanying the gun when it was returned the second time warned me that they would not replce it again under warranty. I thought about asking them why a revolver that had "S&W .357 Magnum" on the barrel couldn't be used with that ammo, but read in several magazines that K-frame S&Ws wouldn't stand up to a lot of hot loads and figured if the gun writers accepted that, I probably should, too.
Thirty-odd years later, I'm a lot older and a little wiser. I now limit my K-frames to .38s and have a handful of 686s for the hot stuff.
Ed
Anyway, I bought a new Model 19 in 1974 and shot it a lot, mostly with 38 Specials loaded with 148-grain wadcutters over 3.5 grains of Bullseye powder. But I did run some magnums through it and used the 125-grain loads the most. It didn't take many before fired case extraction became "sticky" and a cylinder of two later, a punch and a mallet were required to get the empties out of the cylinder.
S&W replaced the cylinder twice and a letter accompanying the gun when it was returned the second time warned me that they would not replce it again under warranty. I thought about asking them why a revolver that had "S&W .357 Magnum" on the barrel couldn't be used with that ammo, but read in several magazines that K-frame S&Ws wouldn't stand up to a lot of hot loads and figured if the gun writers accepted that, I probably should, too.
Thirty-odd years later, I'm a lot older and a little wiser. I now limit my K-frames to .38s and have a handful of 686s for the hot stuff.
Ed
amd6547
Member
I use 125gn DoubleTap BondedCore as my carry load in my Model 19-4 2.5". Though I limit how much I actually shoot this load in this revolver, I dont find the recoil to be objectionable at all. I use OEM magnas and T-grip, and I can shoot this ammo rapidly and accurately.
If it were not for the stated problems of shooting 125gn in the K frame, I would shoot it all the time.
As far as differing POA/POI...isn't that what adjustable sights are for?
If it were not for the stated problems of shooting 125gn in the K frame, I would shoot it all the time.
As far as differing POA/POI...isn't that what adjustable sights are for?
I was told that the longer bullet "centers" in the forcing cone better. The lighter bullets are shorter and bang around under extremely high pressures going from the cylinder into the barrel. Sounded reasonable. Joe
stantheman86
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hahahaha!That's funny, a note saying "Sir .38's for practice .357 for carry!"
It's the nice way of saying "People like you are why we dropped the K-frame Magnum"
I also read in a S&W book "As to the K-frame magnums,S&W advised .38's only for practice, .357 for duty use..........and of course many didn't listen, and thus the K-frame Magnums were dropped and got a bad rep for being "fragile" by people who insisted on getting their "money's worth" out of that .357 Magnum stamp on the barrel............"
In other words, if it's for HD or CC use, 110-120 gr. .357's won't hurt the gun if you shoot them very sparingly, and then just keep the gun loaded with them.
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As for the penetration situation, I know somewhere I've read the 125 gr HP expands great and penetrates to about 12 inches in ordinance gelatin. That doesn't seem like excessive penetration to me as a 9mm JHP will do the same. Having had no practical experience with this round other than paper punching I'm just regurgitating what I've read. It does seem, however, the bad reputation over penetration the 357 had in years past was because of the 158 gr bullet more so than the 125 gr HP.
NFrameFred
Member
You are probably right about most folks, but I've replaced the barrel on one with a cracked forcing cone. Shoot what you want and take your chances - for heavy magnum usage I have L and N frames.
This topic has had a lot of play in the past. There are several threads on the site which should be found with a key word search.
I have done some research on the matter myself since the Mdl 19 is my favorite S&W. Most of the good stuff is posted on" gunblast.com". Just search the archives for mdl 19 or look for butch kent stuff.
In the interim, look at some of the solid alloy bullets. The material is lighter so a 125 gr bullet is longer than it's lead core counterpart. This seals off the hot gas and should make a real difference. Otherwise, do what I do and shoot magnum loaded 150 gr hollow cavity bullets. They are great.
stantheman86
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Light bullet .357's were popular with LE not because of "stopping power" so much as they dump more energy inside the "perp" instead of going through them and possibly hurting a bystander.
I have seen a 65 with a cracked forcing cone at a gun shop, being sold as a "as is U-fix it" for $150, owner would probably have taken $100 or less, I didn't want to waste the cash on a paperweight because I would never get around to getting it fixed......might have been worth trying to get Smith to fix it free, oh well.......
I also think 130 gr. .38 +P are a good "middle road" round, decent power, less risk of going through drywall, bad guys, etc. in HD scenario, and less recoil and muzzle blast.
If Bill Jordan says to use .38 Special for practice, .357 for duty in the Model 19's, well, that's all I need to know........that's straight from the "father" of the K-frame .357, after all
I have seen a 65 with a cracked forcing cone at a gun shop, being sold as a "as is U-fix it" for $150, owner would probably have taken $100 or less, I didn't want to waste the cash on a paperweight because I would never get around to getting it fixed......might have been worth trying to get Smith to fix it free, oh well.......
I also think 130 gr. .38 +P are a good "middle road" round, decent power, less risk of going through drywall, bad guys, etc. in HD scenario, and less recoil and muzzle blast.
If Bill Jordan says to use .38 Special for practice, .357 for duty in the Model 19's, well, that's all I need to know........that's straight from the "father" of the K-frame .357, after all
In 1986 I cracked the forcing cone in my 4" nickel 19. All I had been feeding it was 168 gr cast bullets pushed by a mild charge of 2400. I ordered a barrel and replaced it. SO...........it did........and does happen.
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