Kentucky Dave
Member
Ah ha!
Thanks! Guess I should keep up on the newer stuff.
Thanks! Guess I should keep up on the newer stuff.
I'm pretty sure he meant this one:
So am I the only one?
- Thread starter Charlton Heston
- Start date
model70hunter
Member
Training, experience with your CC gun, practice and above all keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire.
I saw a cousin accidently shoot an Aunt through the foot with a 22 LR. He was walking with the safety off and his finger on the trigger.
When I was a Deputy one of the dispatchers was a 1911 lover and hand loader. His desire was to bag a deer with the 1911. He cooked up some hot loads and practiced. Opening morning a Doe come by, he shot it. It ran 25-30 yards and laid down. HE was excited, he ran to the doe, tripped a little on a tree root and since he had his finger on the trigger and did not flip up the safety he shot himself through the right calf.
A fellow I worked with was not a gun guy. He did ROTC, became a genuine Goldbar Louie and was sent to Nam. Some kind of office job. They gave him a 1911, he put on the belt fumbled around to see if it was loaded and put it in the holster with his finger still on the trigger. Did not engage the safety. Hole down through the calf, lots of damage, day 2 he was on his way stateside and ended up medically discharged.
The round in the chamber never causes problems, it is always the finger on the trigger and choosing to not engage the safety.
When I first was a deputy I carried a Colt combat commander,everyone else carried revolvers. I carried it cocked and locked. Never an issue.
I have my Dad's old 3 screw Ruger Single Six. Dad was the 2nd owner. The 1st guy was practicing the fast draw. Shot his calf or foot. Sold the gun to Dad to pay for his ER visit.
I practiced the fast draw with that gun starting at age 12 or 13. I drew it a few thousand times but it was unloaded and always pointed in a safe direction. I started with slow draws to see when it would be safe to pull the hammer back and when it was safe to put the finger in the trigger guard which was well out in front of the leg-foot.
I eventually went to live fire as I could come up with a little ammo. All of that practice made me very aware of the guns condition, like ready to fire, when it was time to engage my trigger finger. Now it seems 2nd nature to not put my finger on the trigger until it is time to shoot. And that is part of the training I give to folks. It's the finger that gets you into trouble.
One needs to practice with a gun that is unloaded. It must be done safely. One never should consider a gun as empty. Train like you are at the range. Keep it pointed to a safe area and practice until you can do it in the dark....
I saw a cousin accidently shoot an Aunt through the foot with a 22 LR. He was walking with the safety off and his finger on the trigger.
When I was a Deputy one of the dispatchers was a 1911 lover and hand loader. His desire was to bag a deer with the 1911. He cooked up some hot loads and practiced. Opening morning a Doe come by, he shot it. It ran 25-30 yards and laid down. HE was excited, he ran to the doe, tripped a little on a tree root and since he had his finger on the trigger and did not flip up the safety he shot himself through the right calf.
A fellow I worked with was not a gun guy. He did ROTC, became a genuine Goldbar Louie and was sent to Nam. Some kind of office job. They gave him a 1911, he put on the belt fumbled around to see if it was loaded and put it in the holster with his finger still on the trigger. Did not engage the safety. Hole down through the calf, lots of damage, day 2 he was on his way stateside and ended up medically discharged.
The round in the chamber never causes problems, it is always the finger on the trigger and choosing to not engage the safety.
When I first was a deputy I carried a Colt combat commander,everyone else carried revolvers. I carried it cocked and locked. Never an issue.
I have my Dad's old 3 screw Ruger Single Six. Dad was the 2nd owner. The 1st guy was practicing the fast draw. Shot his calf or foot. Sold the gun to Dad to pay for his ER visit.
I practiced the fast draw with that gun starting at age 12 or 13. I drew it a few thousand times but it was unloaded and always pointed in a safe direction. I started with slow draws to see when it would be safe to pull the hammer back and when it was safe to put the finger in the trigger guard which was well out in front of the leg-foot.
I eventually went to live fire as I could come up with a little ammo. All of that practice made me very aware of the guns condition, like ready to fire, when it was time to engage my trigger finger. Now it seems 2nd nature to not put my finger on the trigger until it is time to shoot. And that is part of the training I give to folks. It's the finger that gets you into trouble.
One needs to practice with a gun that is unloaded. It must be done safely. One never should consider a gun as empty. Train like you are at the range. Keep it pointed to a safe area and practice until you can do it in the dark....
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But did he get the deer?
a couple quick thoughts:
If you're gonna treat every gun as if it's loaded, it may as well be-
How you train will kick in without thought when you need it. If you train poorly, that's what you'll get. If you change things up during practice, that invites confusion. Years ago when I first started with long guns I was so regimented about safety on, safety off, fire, safety on with my range time, I'd go bird hunting and release the safety without thought and shoot...and on numerous occasions not get a follow up shot because I had put the safety back on after the first shot... When I got into handguns, the safety "thought process" was already there, so I carry chambered with the safety on...every gun the same.
I have no issue carrying one in the chamber, safety on... but my guns are ALWAYS this way, and I train with them as such...and have had to work on putting the safety on after a shot a separate step. I dont agree with peeps that have guns in different conditions in different places or situations. If I put a hand on mine, it's chambered, and the safety is on. No thought to the starting point. When drawing, the safety is off before I even get to sight picture...
Most NDs are in the act of holstering, or drawing. When I put my EDC on, it goes in a kydex holster covering the trigger, the guard, the safety...then on my belt. Comes off the same way. No fumbling around shirt tails and whatnot trying to work around shirt tails behind my back trying to holster it.
.02 YMWNV
If you're gonna treat every gun as if it's loaded, it may as well be-
How you train will kick in without thought when you need it. If you train poorly, that's what you'll get. If you change things up during practice, that invites confusion. Years ago when I first started with long guns I was so regimented about safety on, safety off, fire, safety on with my range time, I'd go bird hunting and release the safety without thought and shoot...and on numerous occasions not get a follow up shot because I had put the safety back on after the first shot... When I got into handguns, the safety "thought process" was already there, so I carry chambered with the safety on...every gun the same.
I have no issue carrying one in the chamber, safety on... but my guns are ALWAYS this way, and I train with them as such...and have had to work on putting the safety on after a shot a separate step. I dont agree with peeps that have guns in different conditions in different places or situations. If I put a hand on mine, it's chambered, and the safety is on. No thought to the starting point. When drawing, the safety is off before I even get to sight picture...
Most NDs are in the act of holstering, or drawing. When I put my EDC on, it goes in a kydex holster covering the trigger, the guard, the safety...then on my belt. Comes off the same way. No fumbling around shirt tails and whatnot trying to work around shirt tails behind my back trying to holster it.
.02 YMWNV
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GrandpaDan
US Veteran
I've been carrying only for a short while and have come to terms with this issue. "get out of the car now!" says assailant. At this point your options are limited AND seconds count. I have a great ISWB hybrid holster thats custom for my Shield 9mm that firmly secures the trigger. It provides me with great access even inside my SUV.
(Crossbreed w/leather&kydex)
We carry to prevent the loss of life or serious bodily injury...and all the data from violent incidents clearly indicates that seconds count. Good luck.
Kentucky Dave
Member
I just realized that no one has mentioned this:
Since most ranges seriously frown on drawing a loaded gun from a holster, and since a lot of folks don't have anywhere else to shoot -
Consider joining an action shooting club (USPSA/IPSC).
They provide a fun way to learn and become comfortable and practiced with drawing and firing a hot weapon from the holster.
There are usually some welcoming and knowledgeable experienced shooters in each club who are happy to coach newbies along.
There is nothing like doing this (short of becoming a combat veteran) to get used to adrenalin charged drawing a gun and shooting accurately, often while on the move, from behind cover, and with weak hand drills...
Since most ranges seriously frown on drawing a loaded gun from a holster, and since a lot of folks don't have anywhere else to shoot -
Consider joining an action shooting club (USPSA/IPSC).
They provide a fun way to learn and become comfortable and practiced with drawing and firing a hot weapon from the holster.
There are usually some welcoming and knowledgeable experienced shooters in each club who are happy to coach newbies along.
There is nothing like doing this (short of becoming a combat veteran) to get used to adrenalin charged drawing a gun and shooting accurately, often while on the move, from behind cover, and with weak hand drills...
Desert Pete
Member
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2005
- Messages
- 58
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- 17
DA/SA pistol. You get the advantage of a revolver trigger with the first shot, SA with following shots.
touchoneoff
Member
I always carry with a chambered round. When I owned two different Glocks, I did not. The trigger pull was too light for me, even properly holstered. I know, dumb, but I tend to like heavy triggers myself.
Two of my pistols have external safeties, and two of them are DAO, but have heavier trigger pulls. I feel perfectly safe with a chambered round in them...properly holstered of course.
Two of my pistols have external safeties, and two of them are DAO, but have heavier trigger pulls. I feel perfectly safe with a chambered round in them...properly holstered of course.
Shield9 Pro
Member
I think I have to agree with the majority get the training carry what you feel comfortable with. My self I carry either a snubby or a shield or both depending on where I am going (Yes Overkill) the shield does have a safety and I do have it combat loaded ready to go but that may do to training
I realize that for the most part the OP's question has been asked and answered…so I'll just beat the horse a little more since I can't sleep at o dark in the morning. 
IMO, just like anything new someone does there's a time when it's so new the person hasn't gotten the reps or developed the confidence to do the act (i.e. play golf, baseball, drive a car, etc…). But unlike learning to hit a ball and making a mistake, the consequences of having an 'accident' with a gun can be much more life changing. CH, your concerns are valid and real. A respect and appreciation of the consequences of carrying a gun is healthy. So is realizing your own limitations at this point in your experience. Too many people don't have a healthy enough respect for the act of carrying a gun, just like in your profession you could say the same thing of the dangers of fire. The danger is in doing something that might unknowingly decrease your security. IMO carrying unchamberd has those risks.
I know it's been said already but since some continue to say otherwise, OTHER THINGS ASIDE FROM YOUR FINGER CAN MAKE A WEAPON DISCHARGE!! It is true that a proper functioning modern weapon doesn't go off by itself either but it's not just those two things that can cause an ND.
With that said, if you take your finger out of the equation, the area where a discharge often times occurs is during re-holstering; either by a foreign object in your holster that gets lodged in your trigger as you re-holster or a poor holster (i.e. the mouth of the holster folds over and gets caught on your trigger during re-holstering).
A technique that is often taught to mitigate the chances of the above for DA/SA - DAO hammer fired guns (no manual safety) is to consciously put your thumb on the hammer as you re-holster. The reason is for those modern hammer fired pistol to go off, the hammer has to move. By definition these kinds of guns should be reholstered hammer down or decocked. If your thumb is on a lowered hammer, any movement is felt by your thumb before the hammer goes back and drops forward.
On striker fired weapons the technique obviously doesn't apply, so there is a risk. A revolver, DAO, and/or DA-SA guns might be your best bet until you gain the confidence/reps to comfortably carry a striker fired gun (if you ever choose too). Or maybe you train and get used to a pistol with a manual safety.
Many people discount a manual safety for variety of reasons. Thing is, most other firearms (i.e. shotguns, bolt/semi auto rifles, etc…) have them. IME, you don't hear the kind of criticisms when it comes to other commonly used weapons. The whole idea of losing fine motor skills is bull. Pulling a trigger is a fine motor skill, as is pushing your magazine release, a reload, lining up your sights, etc…It's about training. If you do something enough correctly, you'll get good at it. You might never be a Rob Latham, or an SF operator, but your familiarity of the skill becomes very ingrained. A manual safety at that point is more along the lines of a seat belt when you drive….an added layer that some people choose to do or not. As a firefighter, I'm sure you've seen the results of those that didn't wear one…I have. Yet millions of people drive every day w/o one and never get into an accident. Does that negate the effectiveness of them?
I've been in and work regularly with folks who have had to use deadly force at some point. Interestingly enough those safeties and such never got in the way. I'm not saying everyone should carry a gun with a manual safety. I am only pointing out that discounting one simply based on those common reasons is not necessarily correct. As a newer shooter it's an important distinction to decide on your own.
OK, I'll stop beating that horse now…good luck.
IMO, just like anything new someone does there's a time when it's so new the person hasn't gotten the reps or developed the confidence to do the act (i.e. play golf, baseball, drive a car, etc…). But unlike learning to hit a ball and making a mistake, the consequences of having an 'accident' with a gun can be much more life changing. CH, your concerns are valid and real. A respect and appreciation of the consequences of carrying a gun is healthy. So is realizing your own limitations at this point in your experience. Too many people don't have a healthy enough respect for the act of carrying a gun, just like in your profession you could say the same thing of the dangers of fire. The danger is in doing something that might unknowingly decrease your security. IMO carrying unchamberd has those risks.
I know it's been said already but since some continue to say otherwise, OTHER THINGS ASIDE FROM YOUR FINGER CAN MAKE A WEAPON DISCHARGE!! It is true that a proper functioning modern weapon doesn't go off by itself either but it's not just those two things that can cause an ND.
With that said, if you take your finger out of the equation, the area where a discharge often times occurs is during re-holstering; either by a foreign object in your holster that gets lodged in your trigger as you re-holster or a poor holster (i.e. the mouth of the holster folds over and gets caught on your trigger during re-holstering).
A technique that is often taught to mitigate the chances of the above for DA/SA - DAO hammer fired guns (no manual safety) is to consciously put your thumb on the hammer as you re-holster. The reason is for those modern hammer fired pistol to go off, the hammer has to move. By definition these kinds of guns should be reholstered hammer down or decocked. If your thumb is on a lowered hammer, any movement is felt by your thumb before the hammer goes back and drops forward.
On striker fired weapons the technique obviously doesn't apply, so there is a risk. A revolver, DAO, and/or DA-SA guns might be your best bet until you gain the confidence/reps to comfortably carry a striker fired gun (if you ever choose too). Or maybe you train and get used to a pistol with a manual safety.
Many people discount a manual safety for variety of reasons. Thing is, most other firearms (i.e. shotguns, bolt/semi auto rifles, etc…) have them. IME, you don't hear the kind of criticisms when it comes to other commonly used weapons. The whole idea of losing fine motor skills is bull. Pulling a trigger is a fine motor skill, as is pushing your magazine release, a reload, lining up your sights, etc…It's about training. If you do something enough correctly, you'll get good at it. You might never be a Rob Latham, or an SF operator, but your familiarity of the skill becomes very ingrained. A manual safety at that point is more along the lines of a seat belt when you drive….an added layer that some people choose to do or not. As a firefighter, I'm sure you've seen the results of those that didn't wear one…I have. Yet millions of people drive every day w/o one and never get into an accident. Does that negate the effectiveness of them?
I've been in and work regularly with folks who have had to use deadly force at some point. Interestingly enough those safeties and such never got in the way. I'm not saying everyone should carry a gun with a manual safety. I am only pointing out that discounting one simply based on those common reasons is not necessarily correct. As a newer shooter it's an important distinction to decide on your own.
OK, I'll stop beating that horse now…good luck.
sps282
Member
No round in the chamber! That is like having a hammer with no nails!
CTI1USNRET
Member
Anyone who has a fear of carrying a round in the chamber of a semi probably has no clear idea of the safety features built into the gun.
Why won't a modern gun go off if it's dropped? If you don't know the answer to the question maybe your knowledge isn't so good.
Why won't a modern gun go off if it's dropped? If you don't know the answer to the question maybe your knowledge isn't so good.
DaGOOSExyz
Member
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2013
- Messages
- 310
- Reaction score
- 173
Carry what your comfortable with. If your just not comfortable carrying
a pistol on the ready to go that's OK, I'm not comfortable carrying one
either. Therefore I have two revolvers and vowed to and trying to get as good with them as I can get. Again, carry what your comfortable with.
My two cents.
a pistol on the ready to go that's OK, I'm not comfortable carrying one
either. Therefore I have two revolvers and vowed to and trying to get as good with them as I can get. Again, carry what your comfortable with.
My two cents.
george minze
Member
YOU ARE RIGHT ON..Ii TRIED AND TRIED AND THE BEST I COULD COUNT ON WAS 3 OUT OF 5 TRIES.....NOW ADD IN THE PRESSURE OF A DEFENSIVE ENCOUNTER...NO WAY AT LEAST FOR ME..Condition 1 I was pretty decent. that is what I knew and had practiced with for years...
Ozark Marine
US Veteran
Glock 19, ALWAYS locked and loaded. My trigger finger ain't stupid.
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