So disappointed! (Speer #8)

[Charles]

I found a copy of Speer #8 on Ebay for cheap, not knowing it was a second printing from 1971.

ALL the SR4756 data is gone, from all the cartridges. All that's left is blank spots in the charts where they used to be (sniff).

If anyone is looking for one of these and wants the SR4756 data, be sure to check that's it's a first printing you're buying.

On the other hand, if it was removed that quickly, I probably shouldn't be using it. If it weren't for bad luck I wouldn't have ANY luck.

And the rest of the book is more than worth the 8 bucks.

 

[Paul5388]

I think you can find the missing information here.

BTW, the 1971 edition I have only contains changes in .38 Special and .357 Mag and even there, it only reduces the loads by 1.0 gr of SR 4756.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Wow, a Speer #8 that AIN'T!

Glad that both of mine are 1st printings!

 

[dennis40x]

Look for the Speer No-7.9 edition

Don't bother yourself with the Speer-8. Look for the Speer-7.9 edition it makes the Speer -8 1st edition look tame.

 

[FrankD45]

I heard that #7 and SR4756 were the start of global warming. Not that I believe it, but I heard it.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Send yours to Dennis!

Don't bother yourself with the Speer-8. Look for the Speer-7.9 edition it makes the Speer -8 1st edition look tame.

Some folks just don't know quality when they see it!
I have a candidate to send yours to!

 

[Rule3]

I think you can find the missing information here.

BTW, the 1971 edition I have only contains changes in .38 Special and .357 Mag and even there, it only reduces the loads by 1.0 gr of SR 4756.

Paul, thanks for the link to that site. That is pretty neat to be able to look through the old manuals online!

 

[surveyor47]

Beware those old Speer manuals! A starting 357 load of Blue Dot and a Speer 125 grain JHP destroyed my S&W 19. Hodgdon later put out a warning not to use Blue Dot with any 125 grain bullet in 357, but it was much too late for my gun.

In general, with both the S&W19 and Ruger Security Six, I found that starting loads were maximum with data from that manual. The data is interesting, but I dont trust it.

My go to manual is the Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook 2nd & 3rd editions.

 

[Skip Sackett]

This is how rumors get started!

Beware those old Speer manuals! A starting 357 load of Blue Dot and a Speer 125 grain JHP destroyed my S&W 19. Hodgdon later put out a warning not to use Blue Dot with any 125 grain bullet in 357, but it was much too late for my gun.

In general, with both the S&W19 and Ruger Security Six, I found that starting loads were maximum with data from that manual. The data is interesting, but I dont trust it.

My go to manual is the Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook 2nd & 3rd editions.

First off, it ain't the manual that gets folks into trouble, they get themselves into it.

Second off Hodgdon doesn't have anything to do with Blue Dot. Alliant does, they make it.

Thirdly, there are too many variables in reloading to lay the blame on just one thing. Blue Dot is a very temperature sensitive powder. You make no mention of what ambient temperature was when those destructive bullets were fired. Neither do you mention what took place in that M19 before firing that dreadful round that blew the gun up.

Fourthly, trust it or not, in my opinion you haven't learned your lesson. Why trust a manual from someone that doesn't make powder? Use the powder manufacturer's manual/data first, always. See what the results are and THEN go to the folks that sell bullets/moulds.

The logic you provide is like someone saying "The devil made me do it."

My answer to that always is "No, you listened to him and made the decision to do it yourself. You are responsible for what you do, period."

 

[ISOM]

Speer Manual #8

I got a #8 back in 1970 when I first startd reloading.
It has excellent reloading in it on HOT TO RELOAD. The loads are out of date and dangerous to use today.

I have picked up 2 Speer # 8 manuals at Gun Shows for about $8.00.

 

[Paul5388]

The loads are out of date and dangerous to use today.

Out of date for 1956 or 1968 vintage powder? Since I have both vintages, I think I'll continue to use those Speer #8 loads just like I have since 1972.

I was curious about what the chronograph would say about powders of vastly differing ages, so I used some extremely differing aged powders for this little experiment.

I suppose you'll notice there isn't any great difference in the results that lot to lot variation wouldn't account for.

Here's what the cans of powder look like, if you care to see if you've ever seen any that age (the can of Unique has a metal pour spout similar to what a 1# salt container has).

I need to see how DuPont #6 and HiVel#2 works sometime, since I have some of that too.

 

[surveyor47]

I never said my gun was blown up by Blue Dot, but then there are other modes of failure, such as excessive frame stretching that you did not mention. My gun locked up after 12 rounds of a Blue Dot starting load with the Speer 125 grain JHP and was ultimately pounded open by a local gunsmith, who sent it off to S&W, who pronounced it DOA. Temp 30 F. Yes my fault; given the extreme report and blast, I should have known that something was wrong. Back then, if you werent loading a Keith load, you were a wimp and I listened to that garbage. My fault for believing gun rag writers, particularly Skeeter. Yes, you are right, it is Alliant- no wonder I havent seen that warning lately and I have been looking for it at Hodgdon. And I did disassemble rounds and check the load- which was as per spec.

Blue Dot is a fantastic 12 gauge 2 3/4" magnum powder and I took many geese with Blue Dot and #2 lead, back when that was legal.Havent loaded it in years, and would never consider using it in any handgun.

Now, if you want to try a really fantastic new generation powder in 357, give Lil Gun a try. According to Hodgdon, you can achieve something on the order of 1300 fps with a 158 grain jacketed bullet with the starting load out of a 4 inch barrel. That is hotter than the old 125 grain JHP loads that made such an impression on police. In fact, I dont use these loads in any K-frame, because the velocity is so high that I fear cracking the forcing cone. I reserve Lil Gun loads for L-frame guns.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Bill Jordan may have been wrong!

Glad you cleared some of that up. Too many folks take what is written on a forum like this as "gospel" when there is a bunch more unwritten that lays between the lines.

When we make "ultimate" statements we need to make them exceptionally clear so as not to be misunderstood.

My contention goes back to the firearm you shot them from for one thing. A "K" frame 357Mag has been notorious for being just a tad on the light side for a continuous diet of true magnum rounds. That is why most law enforcement departments used to use 38spl to practice with when they carried them as their side arm. "L" and "N" frames are a completely different story, in my opinion. They are built to take a licking and keep on ticking.

My ammo storage shelving just had a catastrophe and I came across some rounds I loaded long ago. They are 158gr Blue Dot loads. There are about 100 of them and that is probably where they will stay.

I don't load shotgun shells at this time so I wouldn't have any use for it anyway. I would much prefer SR4756 for those loads anyway!

I still use the SR4756 38spl and 357Mag loads from the Speer #8. My powder isn't the vintage that Paul's is but I have gotten very similar results to his and almost exactly what the manual says I would.

I also use some of the 2400 loads out of it in the 45AutoRim and get the same results.

I didn't start off at the top of the data either. I did what I always do when working up a new load. I go to the powder manufacturer's data and start from there. Then I go to the manuals, whatever they be.

FWIW

 

[surveyor47]

SR4756 was my 20 gauge powder of choice. Shot 10s of thousands of rounds in skeet with SR4756. Havent shot skeet in 15 years, so I havent reloaded any shotgun rounds in a while.

Green Dot was my preferred 12 gauge powder for 1 1/8 ounce skeet loads. Unique did not impress me and I had better uses for it- revolvers.

473AA was the wierdest powder I ever dealt with. One load would be powder puff light and the next like a cannon. I think it was entirely due to wad pressure. I found Green Dot far more forgiving.

I never tried Green Dot in revolvers although I occasionally saw data. I was more than satisfied by Unique.

For handguns, I finally standardized on Unique, Bullseye, IMR4227 and H110. I am only now getting around to experimenting with 2400, which that deceased M19 didnt like. I avoided that powder for 30 years afterward. Had gun rag writers explained that the S&W19 that the pitched so much was essentially a 38 Special with a limited ability to fire 357 Magnum ammo, they would have done a great service. I would have been so much better off had I purchased a S&W 28 Highway Patrolman as my first handgun. Now thats a real sportsmans revolver.

 

[Jellybean]

I need to see how DuPont #6 and HiVel#2 works sometime, since I have some of that too.

Paul, if you are looking for data for those two powders, try the lyman/Ideal handbook #39. It even has a table to easily set your No. 55 powder measure for these powders.

 

[Jellybean]

Now, if you want to try a really fantastic new generation powder in 357, give Lil Gun a try. According to Hodgdon, you can achieve something on the order of 1300 fps with a 158 grain jacketed bullet with the starting load out of a 4 inch barrel.

I'm not sure where you got that data from, especially the part about the 4" barrel. Hodgdon doesn't tell you on their website, but they use a 10" barrel for .357 magnum velocities.

And while I have all the respect in the world for smith crazy, I don't go to Hodgdons data first, especially after talking to them about their data manuals. I use Lymans first. Then I go to Sierra's, Speers, Hornadys, Accurates, VVs, and etc, to compare notes. I do occaisionally use Hodgdons but I know how much B.S. they try to add in.

 

[surveyor47]

Go to the Hodgdon website Hodgdon - The Gun Powder People and look it up.

"158 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Lil'Gun .357" 1.580" 16.0 1504 24,100 CUP 18.0 1577 25,800 CUP"

I called Hodgdons Tech Support and asked what the approximate velocity would be out of a 4 inch barrel, and I was told about 1300 fps. That is an approximate 200 fps velocity loss from test barrel to revolver. In my book, that is outstanding performance. From what Hodgdon told me, Lil Gun is similar to H110 in several respects, particularly that it doesnt like reduced loads. You have to stay within the specification and DO NOT reduce the load. Fired cases just fall out of chambers. And in my guns, it is extremely accurate.

There isnt a lot of published data out there on this powder, so I went straight to Hodgdon.

 

[surveyor47]

My go to manual is Lyman. Never had a bad load from them. My #2 is Hornady. I trust Hodgdon.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Didn't USED to do it either!

I'm not sure where you got that data from, especially the part about the 4" barrel. Hodgdon doesn't tell you on their website, but they use a 10" barrel for .357 magnum velocities.

And while I have all the respect in the world for smith crazy, I don't go to Hodgdons data first, especially after talking to them about their data manuals. I use Lymans first. Then I go to Sierra's, Speers, Hornadys, Accurates, VVs, and etc, to compare notes. I do occaisionally use Hodgdons but I know how much B.S. they try to add in.

Here is the reason I go to powder manufacturer's data first. I had a KB with data from a manual. What manual? One that is a "standard" for most folks. I even called Hodgdon about the problem with my Browning High Power that I encountered with Clays and told them where I got the data from. It was a 175gr lead bullet with 3.9gr of Clays. Right from this other manual. He said: "Our data shows a maximum of 3.5gr and Clays is a finicky powder. Just a little over and the pressure spike is super steep. I have recommended that manual for loads for years, I guess I am going to have to change that!"

When he said that, I made my decision to start with manufacturer's data. Now, I have been known to use manuals, and some of those others scoff at as being "reloading heresy".

Guess what manual it was that I used the data from, Lyman #47!

Take a word of caution, use Hodgdon's data first.

 

[dennis40x]

Reloading data is what it is a guide

I believe that the Seer #8 manual is better understood if one reads the Speer #7.9. The copy I have was given to me by Jack O'Connor before he took the cruise of no return to Hawaii. RIP, Jack. He told me that the one he gave me was Vernon Speer's personal copy. I don't believe Jack would have lied to me. If made the right offer I'd part with it. This manual is a must have to completely understand the significance of Speer #8.

Reloading data is what it is a guide. You don't start at the top and work down. Just because some one else used a combination of components to formulate a load it doesn't make it safe for you. I'm not trying to create shock and awe with my loads. I've been in exchanges of ideas by fire power. I used the ammunition I was issued and the opponents used the ammunition they were issued also. To the best of my knowledge no one was using hand loads. I use reloads to punch holes in paper, splatter lead on steel plates, and I quit hunting a long – long time ago. For self-defense I'll buy mine from one the major suppliers of ammunition such as Winchester etcetera, etcetera.