So have I increased the value of my 686+ Pro Series, or decreased it?

[inlandtaipan]

Hi all,

First let me say that I really enjoy the knowledge and even more so the tone of this forum. There is a certain CA related firearm forum that can be a touch hostile and authoritarian particularly if you don't happen to tow the party line.

I ask this question strictly out of curiosity BTW, as I have no plans to sell this pistol whatsoever. It's fun to shoot and is my only revolver at this point. What would I waste time fondling if I didn't have her? lol.

Relevant to your opinions would be a bit of background about me. IT systems engineer for 20+ years, always been mechanically inclined (mom's term) and the type that has been taking things apart and putting them together again since I could talk. Usually successfully I work on cars, guitars, electronics, household electrical/plumbing, into RC helis, planes..etc. etc. I tend to read a lot and have leveraged the knowledge on the internet for years for general interest, professional needs, and for hobbies. And believe me, I hate writing anything about myself that might come across in a pompous way.. so hopefully I'm not pushing those buttons. Just want you to get a sense of the type of person I am.

I did these modifications with the help of great forums like this one, a lot of study of parts diagrams, and viewing many youtube videos repeatedly.

My purpose for this pistol is only for target shooting fun and not for carry or home defense purposes.

The patient: 2015 S&W 686-5+ Pro Series with a 5" barrel. The parts: A Wolff spring kit with their type II mainspring and I chose the 13# rebound spring. Also removed the stock front sight and installed a red fiber optic Hi Viz sight. I used 2000 grit sandpaper and mother's mag polish for smoothing and aesthetic purposes.

I very lightly polished some moving/mating parts including all 4 sides of the rebound slide assembly and the contact areas on the 3 sides of the frame that it slides against. For the main friction areas on the frame I followed the sandpaper with mother's mag polish. I also polished the cylinder stop surface where it contacts the cylinder and the areas that mate with the trigger. Likewise on the cylinder stop contact areas on the trigger. I polished the large flat area on the trigger involved in the double action movements and the areas on the double action sear that the trigger surface slides against during double action movement and break. Let me again emphasize that I polished very lightly only until a light shine and that slight change in smoothness was noticeable by touch. Probably no more than 3-5 light strokes in most cases.

I did not go anywhere near the single action sear surfaces on either the hammer or trigger.

I polished the slightly raised bushing like surfaces on both sides of the frame where the fixed pivot post for the trigger and hammer are. Likewise the circular areas on the hammer and trigger that make contact with those surfaces. Probably silly as the hammer and trigger spin such a small amount but what the heck.

And finally just because I find the stock MIM trigger and hammer finish a total eyesore, I gave a full mother's mag polish treatment to only the areas visible outside the pistol. So much nicer looking in my eyes.

All of this work was done with a very gentle touch and none of the parts were ever subjected to any rough handling, dropping, hammering, vises, etc. Nothing but hands, a flat head screwdriver, and a small phillips head to compress the rebound slide spring when reassembling.

The results: A glass smooth double action pull and cocking feel. Single action break feel about the same (already excellent stock) with a slight reduction in pull weight. The sound the pistol makes is definitely different as well. You can hear each mechanical actuation step much more cleanly somehow. I'm not sure how to describe it. The double action pull is now approx. 8.5 pounds and the single action pull is approx. 2.75 pounds. I haven't had a chance to range test it yet so we'll see if I have a problem with light primer strikes. The 13 pound rebound spring certainly recycles the trigger far faster than I can quick fire. I didn't get a chance to measure the stock single action pull but it is definitely lighter, maybe even too light for my tastes. I can't imagine what it would be like if the single action sear is polished or modified. I may even put the 14 or 15 pound rebound spring in and see what changes that makes to both actions. I have thoroughly tested for hammer push off when cocked and the thing will not budge when pulling the hammer back those last few mm past the cocked point and letting it go, nor will it move when applying a good amount of pressure to the back of the cocked hammer.

Back to the original query. I very much increased the value of this pistol *for me*. I guess my actual question is more along the lines of what would be wise advertising if I do sell this pistol someday?Full disclosure and sharing the improvements that many pay good money for, or just sell it with a minimum of info other than honest answers to questions asked?

The part of me that has confidence in my work and pride in what I accomplished wants to pass the info on. Not to mention the ethical angle as well. I would never try to compare my work to what a veteran gunsmith would accomplish, but I can also say that I spent far more time being a perfectionist and taking great care than a professional would have the time to do.

Congrats if you read this ridiculously long post. Thanks for taking the time and for any thoughts. I've posted a few pics so you can see what a trigger looks like without black mold on it. Lol.

 

[regalsc]

I think your mom is right about you being mechanically inclined which I have never been accused of because I'm not. It sounds like you studied on what to do to your action to improve it with positive results. I like the way your hammer & trigger came out. Unless you're really happy with those grips getting some Ahrends would be MY next improvement. Looking forward to reading about your range trip results.

 

[629shooter]

Since the value of your revolver is been increased by/for you; I don't see a downside, as long as it works.

If you were using it for HD/SD, it would be a different ball game.

Welcome to the Forum!

 

[wrhk33]

Back to the original query. I very much increased the value of this pistol *for me*. I guess my actual question is more along the lines of what would be wise advertising if I do sell this pistol someday?Full disclosure and sharing the improvements that many pay good money for, or just sell it with a minimum of info other than honest answers to questions asked?

Full disclosure but I wouldn't expect anyone to pay more for your work. Many would not want to buy a gun that has been worked on by a non-professional. When I look at used guns, trigger work done by someone that does not have a national reputation for good work makes me think less of the deal.

 

[F75gunslinger]

As long as you like the work you did, then that's all that matters. As far as full disclosure, I'd mention the spring change, and keep the stock springs to send with it. As long as there are no light strike issues, not much else needs to be said. People don't like buying something a " non professional " did himself, but at the same time, there are many " professionals " that do a worse job than a guy with mechanical ability working on his own stuff.

 

[Goblin]

It seems that custom work only increases value for most people if you have a receipt from a well-known, respected gunsmith. Then you can add about $200 to the selling price for every $1,000 you spent. I'm exaggerating, but not much.

I think what you did was great. Anyone who is mechanically inclined understands why you shouldn't start shaving metal out of the action. Most first-time action jobs that go bad are performed by people who don't understand it. You do need to check the timing to see if it's still good.

 

[epj]

Many would despairingly call what you did a "kitchen table trigger job". A real turn off to many purists. I personally don't think from what you describe that you did anything to damage the gun or reduce its value. Not everyone who removes the side plate on a revolver knows what they are doing. Many are quite unqualified. The used gun buyer usually assumes the latter.

 

[Hapworth]

You have increased the value of the revolver only if you develop a huge name in the gunsmithing field.

You have kept relatively neutral the value of the revolver if you happen to find a buyer looking for the exact changes you've made and who loves the results.

To most, the value will have dropped, though not precipitously.

As for disclosure -- if you were buying a used revolver from someone who taught themselves action tuning for the first time on the revolver you were considering, would you want to know?

 

[Arik]

If this was a classic/antique/collectable I'd say you ruined the value. Being it's a new production gun the only reason I would see the value decrease if you were selling. I don't know you, you are not a gunsmith and what you did could be dangerous. ...as far as I know

 

[Lou_NC]

........The part of me that has confidence in my work and pride in what I accomplished wants to pass the info on.

Good for you, and THANK YOU for sharing your techniques and how you accomplished your work. I've learned a great deal from folks such as yourself who are willing to share their knowledge on this great forum.

Do not let the naysayers and doubters discourage you. Not all of us were born with "The Knack". I was one of the lucky few, and I sense that you are as well!

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60P1xG32Feo[/ame]

Those who do not have mechanical abilities will always disparage those of us who possess them. For some reason, some folks who don't understand mechanical work just can't fathom the fact that we know when to stop polishing an action, even though we haven't completed a full gunsmithing course. Personally, I fear nothing of a seller who worked on a revolver himself. I am perfectly capable of assessing the work and can determine the quality of the work in short order, and whether I'd be willing to pay a premium for it, or offer a significantly lower amount because of how the work was done.

Carry on and keep sharing your tips and techniques!

Lou

P.S. Personally, I would pay a "slight" premium for your revolver over a "stock" example as a result of the quality action job you performed on it, and the front sight swap. (Assuming of course, it passes a full operational safety checkout).

 

[DD357]

You have increased the value of the revolver only if you develop a huge name in the gunsmithing field.

You have kept relatively neutral the value of the revolver if you happen to find a buyer looking for the exact changes you've made and who loves the results.

To most, the value will have dropped, though not precipitously.

As for disclosure -- if you were buying a used revolver from someone who taught themselves action tuning for the first time on the revolver you were considering, would you want to know?

Agreed; with it being a 2015 vintage I would have gone right ahead as well. If it was more of a classic then the damage to it's value would be far worse

 

[reddog81]

You probably didn't increase the value much, nor did you decrease the value much. As long as you kept the original parts you should be able to sell it for just as much a stock gun.
Now if you are expecting to sell the gun + parts for any more than a normal gun you will probably be disappointed.

As long as the gun functions 100% you probably don't have to disclose the modifications. Disclosure of the modifications would not increase the value and most people would probably avoid a gun with a bubba trigger job, even if the bubba trigger job was preformed by the most competent "bubba" out there. I'm not trying to be rude by calling it a "bubba" trigger job, but that is how most people will view it.

 

[jstanfield103]

Value is like already said, that of a used 686+ not less not more.

 

[Culina]

Being that its a current production revolver, I don't think you swayed the value much either way.

 

[hkcavalier]

I don't know if you've increased or decreased the sale value of the gun, but you've shrunk the market of people who would buy it I think.

When I buy used guns I look for evidence of "shade tree smiffin'" that I can use to get a great deal on a gun. Not a broken gun, I don't buy those, but screws that are a little buggered up (and replaced for $5) or pins that show evidence of being pounded out improperly (but the frame is OK).

This doesn't always work in my favor but keeps me busy. It was a 686+ with a poorly-done "Jerry Miculek video" trigger job that got me into this forum in the first place. The revolver is now 100% reliable and has a very light, smooth trigger.

If you have expertise, you sell the expertise. If you don't have expertise, you have to sell the results. You did a great trigger job on your own, you're probably going to have to take the buyer out to the range and let him or her put a few through it. Of course, it's all academic since you're hanging on to it.

 

[BAM-BAM]

About 25-30 years ago I modified a 4" 686 .........to suit me and my perceived needs....

the 686 was Round-butted,got an action job and a modified front sight.

and as an understudy a 4" 617.....

the 617 was also round-butted,received an action job and a modified front sight.

For years both wore Pachmayr Compact grips.(today they have Spegel extended boot grips...)

I still have and use both guns......

estimated annual cost of ownership as modified about $15/year/gun.

value of the modified guns...... to me ......priceless!

So if you like your gun......don't worry about it........

 

[inlandtaipan]

Thanks for the comments folks. Your thoughts are pretty much what I expected. I think I probably have similar feelings when I have purchased a used gun. In fact I have found myself annoyed when I see a listing that highlights a bunch of custom work/parts and a crazy asking price. Although most of that is probably because I'd rather customize the gun myself!

To Goblin's point: I didn't touch the hand or ratchet nor anything in that critical linkage system. Likewise with the cylinder bolt. Lockup is as tight as it was stock and timing is exactly the same as well. One interesting/mildly concerning thing about this pistol from the moment I took it out of the box is that lockup is "no wiggle" tight when the hammer is cocked on 4-5 cylinders but on a couple of cylinders it has a tiny tiny bit of wiggle. I've compared it to other new revolvers and this seems to be the case with some of them. The folks at the FFL and other experienced revolver shooters have said it's well within spec. It does annoy the perfectionist in me though. The milling of the cylinder stop slots in the cylinder and/or the ratchet are the two main variables in my mind for this behavior. I'm working on ignoring the quirk...

Aside from the resale aspect I want to say that the project has been a lot of fun. Looking at the insides of a revolver and thinking it was just a confusing mess of many parts a few months ago, to now, where I understand the functions of the parts and the relationships and movements is a neat experience. I encourage anyone that enjoys mechanical devices to at least take a look at the "clockwork" inside your S&W revolver and if so inclined, study up (don't just watch one video and dive in!) and *judiciously* and conservatively make some improvements. Some folks just do a spring kit for starters, but I'd make the argument that you can make a more noticeable difference in the feel of the pistol by polishing the rebound spring assembly and related frame surfaces alone even with stock springs. The pull weights might not change much but the feel of the pull and consistency is sweet.

Just buy yourself a decent set of hollow ground gunsmith bits. You can get a decent set for less than 20 bucks on Amazon. These frame screws are the consistency of chilled butter. You want the blade to be a close fit but not extend beyond the edges of the screwhead to avoid marring your frame.

Here's a link to another post on a different forum where I talk about the process. Scroll down a bit for one of my comments and some links to a few useful youtube videos.

Slicked up my S&W 686+ Pro Series 357 mag

 

[buck460XVR]

The buggered sideplate screw as seen in your second pic would probably be the biggest detriment to the gun's value of anything you have done. That's generally a dead giveaway to most folks that someone other than a gunsmith has been playin' around inside.

 

[inlandtaipan]

Yep, that's what I get for being impatient and opening it up before I got a decent driver set. Pretty mild buggery I'd say, but nothing that a 20 buck set of new sideplate screws won't fix.

Doing anything to the internals aside, I'd hope that anyone would at some point open the side plate to thoroughly clean the gun if it's shot frequently. But first impressions and mindsets are what they are.

The buggered sideplate screw as seen in your second pic would probably be the biggest detriment to the gun's value of anything you have done. That's generally a dead giveaway to most folks that someone other than a gunsmith has been playin' around inside.

 

[epj]

I hadn't noticed the screw. But, as noted, that's easily remedied. Many potential buyers would happily take that gun home and proceed with their own kitchen table trigger job, but are scared to death of anyone else's. Some amateurs are better than some gunsmiths. Many, however, are not. You've increased the value of the gun to you. What others may think is of little relevance.