Some Clarification On US Gun Laws Please...

[mac2]

OK, so Piers Morgan being dropped by CNN came up in conversation at my creative writing group and 2 fellow Brits typically opined that anyone can get anything in the way of guns in America. Quite a few have this view; that firearms are similar to cookies: anyone can buy them regardless of criminal record and with no age restriction. And, everyone can carry them anywhere they like. I started to argue with them and they were adamant before the group moved on to other topics to discuss.

This is how I understand it:

Fifty states, each with their own set of laws and federal law – the central government – Congress- in Washington DC, as well. With regard to purchase, some, like in Texas and Georgia are comparatively lax, whilst others eg New York have stringent criteria to rival pretty much anywhere else outside of Japan and the UK, and have done for many years. At the very minimum, there is a background check and you cannot have a criminal record or be mentally ill – something called a 4473 form? Moreover, what's legal to own in one state might no be in another, for example 50BMG rifles in California and not all states allow Class 3 weapons – machine guns, rocket launchers, flame throwers...

WRT carrying them, some states allow open carry pretty much anywhere unless the landowner expressly forbids it or it's a federal government building. Some states allow concealed carry if you have a background check and take a test for use, safe-handling and knowledge of state and federal law. Other states don't allow any carrying of firearms at all.
What's legal in one state WRT purchase, own, carry and use might not in another and if you broke the law, you could be looking at a criminal record at minimum and serious jail time at worst.

A criminal record bars you from any firearms ownership full stop throughout the US. So, the US is actually stricter than the UK in this regard.

Am I right?

 

[MajorDude]

That is a pretty good overview. All states except a couple have some form of concealed carry now, and many have reciprocity with each other. The states with the most restrictive gun laws are to be avoided IMHO! There's a good chance we'll wind up with some kind of federal carry law in the not too distant future. Until then, it's important to check the local laws before you travel with firearms. Generally speaking, you can go pretty much anywhere with your firearms unloaded and locked up in the "boot".

 

[MajorDude]

Another thing I forgot to mention is that we can't buy handguns across state borders unless the seller has a Federal Firearms License for that state. So I can buy pretty much anything I want in Ohio, my state of residence, but couldn't buy a handgun if I drive across the border to Indiana. Long guns OK. Any firearms purchase from a dealer requires a NICS check which requires the purchaser to fill out a form and the dealer calling in the answers to the questions to the FBI who checks the buyer against their list of prohibited persons. If the buyer is clean, the sale is allowed.

 

[quneur]

The federal agency Alcohol Tabacco & Firearms control firearms across state lines. Sale and delivery of any modern firearm across state lines w/o a federally license dealer is unlawful and is regulated by the ATF.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation is responsible for upkeeping a database of those unable to obtain a firearm (those with a record, restraining orders, mentally ill, etc.). Once source of data is from individual states.

All public firearms sales must go through a dealer (Federal Firearm License) which the purchaser must pass the National Instant Criminal background check System (NICS). Individual states may require a more stringent background check usually for handguns and usually done by local police. Private sales do not have these requirements.

Each state govern their own firearm laws. Class 3 firearms can be obtained in some states but those who have a license are usually have to pass very stringent background checks and pay a lot for it. Every select fire guns are tracked. Some states are 'shall issue' which means they are required to issue a concealled weapons permit without training as long as you have a background check in good standing and pay a fee.

Handguns receives more consideration. The federal Brady Law requires a back ground check before any purchase. So, if you have a concealled permit, it usually means you've already went through a federally required background check.

Last note: sometimes federal laws are in direct conflict with state laws. A lawyer could probably explain it better. But some states have a level of crime. There are diffeent classes of felonies; 1,2,3 with class 1 being the most violent. A state may allow a class 3 felon to obtain their gun rights after a certain amount of years. The FBI may not. Hence, you may own a firearm but barred from purchase.

 

[mac2]

Cheers guys; I know any sovereign nation's gun laws other than my own are nothing to do with us, but when people who know next to nothing give strong opinions and parrot the same easily disproved in the age of the internet, myths and misconceptions, it does grate and I for one like to counter them...

 

[scooter123]

A couple of notes.

First, there is an underground black market in the UK for handguns, and probably rifles, that is completely unregulated. Yeah, it's illegal. However that is what happens when you make something illegal.

Second, here in the US carry laws vary from state to state. It's inconvenient at times but we have a long history of local governance proving to being more responsive to local needs than national governance.

I live in Michigan, which is considered sort of middle of the road for Gun Rights. For example, until recently the purchase of a handgun required applying for a Pistol Purchase Permit. You got that from you local Police Department. Fortunately, this particular requirement was rescinded, because all it did was duplicate the NICS background check that you have to pass when purchasing from a dealer. We also have Handgun Registration. Anytime you purchase a handgun part of the process is turning in copies of the sales receipts to the local Police Department within 10 days. One of those copies is kept by the local Police and another goes to the State Police to be entered into the statewide registration database. BTW, that particular database is distinctly corrupted because there is no mechanism for removing registrations from the database when a handgun is sold. After something like 60 years of registrations there is a large number of deceased persons still keeping handguns, probably in their coffins. Or maybe Open Carry is common practice in Heaven.

As for Carry, Michigan's Constitution allows the Open Carry of Handguns or Rifles by any person legally allowed to own a firearm and over 18 years of age. Concealed Carry requires a permit but Michigan is Shall Issue for Concealed Pistol Licenses, which means the local Gun Boards must issue a permit if the person applying meets the qualifications. As for those qualifications, there is an extensive list of Excluding Factors, such as a conviction for something like Reckless Driving or even failing to Register to Vote. You also have to have 4 hours in the classroom covering the various Legal Aspects and a range qualification. Finally, any applicant is subjected to both a state wide database check for any mental health or criminal issues in addition to a nationwide database check by our FBI. Basically, criminals and idiots are pretty much prevented from obtaining a CPL. The fact that State and Local Police tend to hold CPL holders in higher regard than the common citizen is an indication of just how thorough those State and National checks are.

 

[cmort666]

Cheers guys; I know any sovereign nation's gun laws other than my own are nothing to do with us, but when people who know next to nothing give strong opinions and parrot the same easily disproved in the age of the internet, myths and misconceptions, it does grate and I for one like to counter them...

Don't feel bad. There is massive ignorance of guns/gunlaws here by Americans as well.

Most seem to get their "knowledge" of guns from movies, and of gun and self-defense law from one of the various flavors of "Law & Order".

I was amused when my relatives in Apartheid Chicago asked me if my guns were "registered". All of their information comes from "Law & Order" and "CSI". Half the time, those shows are wrong about the law in NYC and Las Vegas.

 

[mac2]

First, there is an underground black market in the UK for handguns, and probably rifles, that is completely unregulated. Yeah, it's illegal. However that is what happens when you make something illegal.

Something many of us are all too well aware...

But I doubt any of the handguns banned in 1997 went underground as they were all individually registered and the owners either had to hand them in or otherwise dispose of them. Some, including myself sent them abroad and Brits go to places like Jersey, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland and France to shoot them.

 

[Aticus]

Mac2, let me say that I appreciate you're trying to explain to you friends about our gun laws. You seem to have a better grasp of the subject than most non-Americans.

I don't want to hijack the thread but I had a thought during the Olympics: most Europeans seem to think, like your friends, that anyone in this country can purchase any gun, at any time, anywhere. They seem to equate the western films with the way the "wild west" was and this country still is. If this is a true depiction of this country why do we always have such bad results in the Biathlon competition?

Sorry for the thread drift I just find it curious.

 

[the ringo kid]

Another thing I forgot to mention is that we can't buy handguns across state borders unless the seller has a Federal Firearms License for that state. So I can buy pretty much anything I want in Ohio, my state of residence, but couldn't buy a handgun if I drive across the border to Indiana. Long guns OK. Any firearms purchase from a dealer requires a NICS check which requires the purchaser to fill out a form and the dealer calling in the answers to the questions to the FBI who checks the buyer against their list of prohibited persons. If the buyer is clean, the sale is allowed.

Slight correction posted below your post. I was going to mention but not needed.

 

[feralmerril]

I have been into guns most my life. There has been a lot of confusion through the years due to so many various different state laws, and even citys having more stricter and restrictive laws than even the state gives. For awhile I had tables at gun shows in the 1980s in california. Every weekend we went to different citys they were at. The rules and posted "warnings" posted at the entrance`s seemed to vary and it was a big reason I quit setting up. It seemed that many times the thinking was "Better safe than sorry" and the promoters or whoever imposed more restrictions than there was laws for!
With all the big push on restrictive gun laws etc, it seems to me we actualy now enjoy more freedom on concealed carry gun permits than was even heard of 50-60 years ago when I was a kid! On the otherside of the coin though, there was no waiting time, restrictions on guns being sent directly to your house, registration etc. You probley have never heard it admitted out loud by a gun person like me before, but the way it looks to me, if you want to jump through the hoops and have a clean record and arent a certified nut, if you want to pack concealed you can do it eaisier and with more blessed permits now across the nation, than we could many years ago!

 

[venomballistics]

your fairly close ... the rocket launcher isn't a class 3, Its designated as a destructive weapon. Different bag of rats there.
You seem to underestimate concealed carry a bit. We are more or less full sweep shall issue or may issue in every state, with shall issue being the majority ... traveling state to state needs a little work yet as various states recognize different permits.

 

[Lost Lake]

Do we really want the Brits knowing we all aren't armed with flamethrowers 24/7???

What's to keep them from attacking when the fear is gone?

.

 

[mac2]

I don't want to hijack the thread but I had a thought during the Olympics: most Europeans seem to think, like your friends, that anyone in this country can purchase any gun, at any time, anywhere. They seem to equate the western films with the way the "wild west" was and this country still is. If this is a true depiction of this country why do we always have such bad results in the Biathlon competition?

Sorry for the thread drift I just find it curious.

Probably because they don't do think...well not for themselves at any rate, they know what someone's told them, and that's it.

 

[mac2]

Do we really want the Brits knowing we all aren't armed with flamethrowers 24/7???

What's to keep them from attacking when the fear is gone?

.

We know you're not...you might set fire to the White House...

 

[mac2]

With all the big push on restrictive gun laws etc, it seems to me we actualy now enjoy more freedom on concealed carry gun permits than was even heard of 50-60 years ago when I was a kid! On the otherside of the coin though, there was no waiting time, restrictions on guns being sent directly to your house, registration etc. You probley have never heard it admitted out loud by a gun person like me before, but the way it looks to me, if you want to jump through the hoops and have a clean record and arent a certified nut, if you want to pack concealed you can do it eaisier and with more blessed permits now across the nation, than we could many years ago!

Funnily enough, that's the impression I've got just reading magazines and these forums. One thing I've noticed is that, when you look at things objectively, you find on balance, they're not as bad as you think they are most of the time.

 

[mac2]

You seem to underestimate concealed carry a bit. We are more or less full sweep shall issue or may issue in every state, with shall issue being the majority ... traveling state to state needs a little work yet as various states recognize different permits.

Looks like there's been quite a bit of progress - I can remember when Florida was in the news as it was the first state to enact shall issue carry -1989? and then other states followed suit and lobbying by the NRA made no small contribution to this

 

[gunfish]

There are two subjects being talked about here. I live in the state of Indiana. Indiana allows anyone 18 and over to carry concealed if they submit to a criminal history check by the State Police. One must be 21 to purchase a firearm at a store and pass the federal background check. Getting a handgun and carrying it in Indiana is not difficult. Citizenship is not required. Indiana will honor the concealed carry permit of any other state or foreign country. Where I live nobody frets about firearms, it is taken for granted that folks are armed or may be. Being able to defend yourself and those you love is not antisocial, it is the basis of civilazation. People that don't want you to have the right of self-defense are not your friends. That is the view from the cornfields.

 

[Rastoff]

mac2,
I'm impressed by your level of knowledge on this subject. I still run across many here that don't know as much as you.

However, this bit...

A criminal record bars you from any firearms ownership full stop throughout the US. So, the US is actually stricter than the UK in this regard.

Am I right?

...is not quite right.

A "felon" is prohibited from ever owning a firearm again. The definition of a felony is a crime punishable by more than a year in prison or death. A misdemeanor does not bar a person from owning a gun.

Further, a felon can petition to get their rights restored. I don't know the process, but I'm certain it's not easy. Still, it can be done if a person tries hard enough.

 

[LVSteve]

Cheers guys; I know any sovereign nation's gun laws other than my own are nothing to do with us, but when people who know next to nothing give strong opinions and parrot the same easily disproved in the age of the internet, myths and misconceptions, it does grate and I for one like to counter them...

As a Brit that came some years ago, I took the trouble to learn about the state and federal firearms laws as they applied to me before citizenship. There are some fascinating wrinkles buried deep in much of it, most of which were to my advantage as it turned out.

One thing I have had problems with is convincing folk back in Blighty just how hard it is to get a machine gun and that the laws date back to the 1930s. They are also terminally dumb about semi vs fully automatic, just like every talking head here on TV.

 

[cmort666]

misdemeanor does not bar a person from owning a gun.

EXCEPT, I believe, a misdemeanor DOMESTIC VIOLENCE conviction.

 

[cmort666]

One thing I have had problems with is convincing folk back in Blighty just how hard it is to get a machine gun and that the laws date back to the 1930s. They are also terminally dumb about semi vs fully automatic, just like every talking head here on TV.

I'm always amused by foreigners who think they know U.S. law, especially with regard to the First and Second Amendments.

During the first Gulf War, I ended my usenet posts with "And Iraq must be destroyed".

A couple of ninnies in Belgium lectured me on how I had to stop doing that IMMEDIATELY, since I was obviously in violation of American "hate speech" laws and could face "prosecution". I told them that no such laws existed, nor indeed COULD exist in the United States, but still offered to provide them the phone number of the FBI if they wanted to drop a dime on me.

This prompted more indignant huffing and puffing from them, in turn prompting more ridicule of them by me. A good time was had by SOME...

 

[MajorDude]

Funnily enough, that's the impression I've got just reading magazines and these forums. One thing I've noticed is that, when you look at things objectively, you find on balance, they're not as bad as you think they are most of the time.

I agree that these are the golden years for firearms owners in my life time. The low point was the Clinton years. Especially due to the foolishly conceived and stupidly executed "Assault Weapons Ban". Before that happened, military style semi auto rifles were unusual and expensive, really only used in high power rifle match competition and plinking. Fear of restrictions have skyrocketed handgun ownership during the Obama administration. Ironically anti gun liberals have sold more firearms in this country than any amount of advertising or lobbying ever could have. And I believe the concealed carry movement has made us all safer. At least I feel that way. I just saw yesterday that Ohio surpassed 402,000 concealed handgun licenses in 2013.

 

[islamoradamark]

in florida if you have been convicted of domestic matter even if it is a mistormeaner you will be denied a carry permit. Also in Florida you can not carry concealed until you are 21. You can take course at 18 and if you pass background check the state will put on hold till you come of age.

 

[smokindog]

Look this over. It's the form for the NICS process.

 

[mac2]

mac2,
I'm impressed by your level of knowledge on this subject. I still run across many here that don't know as much as you.

However, this bit...
...is not quite right.

A "felon" is prohibited from ever owning a firearm again. The definition of a felony is a crime punishable by more than a year in prison or death. A misdemeanor does not bar a person from owning a gun.

Further, a felon can petition to get their rights restored. I don't know the process, but I'm certain it's not easy. Still, it can be done if a person tries hard enough.

Thank you - even before the internet, I found US gun mags much more interesting and informative than what we had here - they actually had colour photos...and used to pick up all sorts of snippets which I found interesting. I believe it is still stricter than here: off the top of my head, if you have received a custodial sentence of up to 3 years, there is a 5 year period prohibition from ownership, whilst over 3 years you are prohibited for life. You can petition to have your rights restored - believe it would be to petition the local police chief (Chief Constable) to grant you a firearm or shotgun licence - known as a "Certificate" when you applied.

 

[Rastoff]

EXCEPT, I believe, a misdemeanor DOMESTIC VIOLENCE conviction.

Some states may have this in their law, but I'd have to see the code before I'd believe it.

There are many such statutes that seem similar though. For example, in CA, if you have a restraining order against you, you are prohibited from owning guns. There are other such statutes, but none at the federal level that I know of.

**I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV**​

 

[rwsmith]

Those two fellows...

Those two fellows are flat wrong. I live in a gun-friendly state and have restrictions on what I can own. I could probably GET anything I wanted, but it would be illegal.

 

[5Wire]

Federal law

Identify Prohibited Persons

The Gun Control Act (GCA) makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms. 18 USC 922(g). Transfers of firearms to any such prohibited persons are also unlawful. 18 USC 922(d).
These categories include any person:

• Under indictment or information in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
• convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
• who is a fugitive from justice;
• who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
• who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
• who is an illegal alien;
• who has been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions;
• who has renounced his or her United States citizenship;
• who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or
• who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (enacted by the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act of 1997, Pub. L. No. 104-208, effective September 30, 1996). 18 USC 922(g) and .

 

[therevjay]

Something many of us are all too well aware...

But I doubt any of the handguns banned in 1997 went underground as they were all individually registered and the owners either had to hand them in or otherwise dispose of them. Some, including myself sent them abroad and Brits go to places like Jersey, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland and France to shoot them.

OK, I understand Jersey, and The Isle of Man are autonomous . But isn't Northern Ireland part of the UK?

P.S. You can keep Piers Morgan! (I do like Mrs. Brown )