I’ll wait for the facts.
Some Lessons from Life
- Thread starter biku324
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OP
On 1, he was responding to a call about someone walking in the four-lane road at nearly midnight in a somewhat rural area. Speed zone there is 65 mph. The area has fairly regular pedestrian fatalities.
On 2, it depends. What did he see or hear? How compliant was the person? You need a copy of the complete case file to know precisely what the officer said and how it lined up with video, audio, and physical evidence.
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This is a classic example of why nobody wants to be a cop. You open yourself up to this situation. This officer probably doesn’t have the mentality to be a cop. He sounded panicked from the start. HOWEVER when a handgun suddenly appears from under a shirt, I think the majority of people would have shot. The pedestrian put himself in a bad situation. Same old story. George Floyd should not be dead. But if George Floyd wasn’t doing illegal things and putting himself in that situation he wouldn’t be dead. Cops are human. They make mistakes. But for once I’d like the guy who ended up dead to bare some responsibility.
OP
The dude was killed. Not sure how he could bear more responsibility than 19 9mm holes in him. The first few shots would never have resulted in charges, but the mag dump while he was lying down sure did.
He was committing a pedestrian error only by walking in the median and did not point the BB gun at anyone even at the beginning of the encounter.
He was committing a pedestrian error only by walking in the median and did not point the BB gun at anyone even at the beginning of the encounter.
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I've had more dealings with badge heavy lawmen than I have had with good lawmen BUT if I was a lawman I wouldn't take anybodys word that it is a BB gun. I also wouldn't believe a red muzzle is a play gun. Larry
LVSteve
Member
I don't have a problem with the first four. Neither would I have had a problem with the officer then retreating to cover saying he cannot now see the weapon so is in no position to render aid and will wait for backup. Him going out to render aid and yelling "Stop moving around", is a poor choice. When you're hurt, it's not uncommon to thrash about in pain. The following mag dump would then have been avoided. Yes, Hadley would have been left wailing on the ground for a while, but I suspect his chances of survival would have been better in that circumstance.
I'm neither a cop nor a lawyer but my uneducated understanding of first-degree murder means that
1.You did it on purpose.
2. You either specifically intended to kill a person or you didn't care if they lived or died.
3. You did it Maliciously.
I don't think this meets those criteria. He for sure shouldn't be a cop. He needs to be held accountable but I don't think he's a murderer.
1.You did it on purpose.
2. You either specifically intended to kill a person or you didn't care if they lived or died.
3. You did it Maliciously.
I don't think this meets those criteria. He for sure shouldn't be a cop. He needs to be held accountable but I don't think he's a murderer.
I sympathize with all parties involved in this ugly situation. Law enforcement definitely isn't for everyone.
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Pointblank2U
US Veteran
Let me say, I am not commenting about THIS specific case. I was an LEO for 32 years, the last few were in command slots. I left the job in 2007. We had very stringent screening for new hires, including psychological evaluations and a torturous 2+ hour oral board. We probably hired one in ten off the civil service list.
Post George Floyd and the villianization of the police by the media, you can't give the job away. My former agency and all those around it have lowered their standards dramatically. They've already got a wrongful death lawsuit against them. Just as in other aspects of life, you get what you pay for.
I can only hope this will change over time. God bless the United States.
Post George Floyd and the villianization of the police by the media, you can't give the job away. My former agency and all those around it have lowered their standards dramatically. They've already got a wrongful death lawsuit against them. Just as in other aspects of life, you get what you pay for.
I can only hope this will change over time. God bless the United States.
Murder. No question
For some yes, And for a few other bad eggs, it’s exactly why they sign up. With this guy, I think it’s bad training. He was too scared not to pull the trigger. Should not have been a cop
OP
That would have been precisely the right response.
AudieMurphy
Member
I'd like to see the toxicology of the police officer!!!!
Doug M.
Member
Anyone who would accept the claim of a suspect that they are not armed, it is a BB gun, or anything else of that nature is a fool.
I have not watched the vid and won't because I am not responsible for making a real decision. The odds of a BWC vid being imperfect due to perspective are not zero. The odds of manipulation that won't be detected are small.
There are some background factors that I have seen impact charging decisions. One is that the quality of legal education generally has declined. Yes, I am old. Get off my lawn. Another specific issue is a huge anti-law enforcement bias in law schools, to the extent that the Constitutional analysis of force by SCOTUS is disregarded. Force is ugly. Effective force is really ugly. That does not make it wrong. Are there cops that need prosecution? Yup. Is that driven by use of force? Not much. Cops don't use force very much, and lethal force maybe 10% of the time they should based on officer injury data.
The legislation inflicted on LE in some states as a result of the knowingly fabricated stories of Floyd and others (do the research) is deeply flawed, and does not reflect decades of lessons learned because of dead cops. The first step in resistance is non-compliance. Under the case law, de-escalation by immediate compliance is not optional. Note that the encounters described by members above could have been bad, but they did the right thing. BTDT myself.
One must own, read, and re-read the solid texts about threat and threat management if one wants to be part of the discourse. Start with "Officer Down, Code Three" and the excellent treatise by Patrick and Hall I have cited here before. "Left of Bang", though written by a Marine about urban combat during GWOT, has good lessons about observing and analysis of conduct to predict actions. We also need a "Snopes" for LE management to help them overcome the lunatic fringe drivel from people like Balko and the propaganda from Wexler at PERF. The only reason that belonging to PERF should not be cause for firing is if one is trying to counter its output and destroy it.
I have not watched the vid and won't because I am not responsible for making a real decision. The odds of a BWC vid being imperfect due to perspective are not zero. The odds of manipulation that won't be detected are small.
There are some background factors that I have seen impact charging decisions. One is that the quality of legal education generally has declined. Yes, I am old. Get off my lawn. Another specific issue is a huge anti-law enforcement bias in law schools, to the extent that the Constitutional analysis of force by SCOTUS is disregarded. Force is ugly. Effective force is really ugly. That does not make it wrong. Are there cops that need prosecution? Yup. Is that driven by use of force? Not much. Cops don't use force very much, and lethal force maybe 10% of the time they should based on officer injury data.
The legislation inflicted on LE in some states as a result of the knowingly fabricated stories of Floyd and others (do the research) is deeply flawed, and does not reflect decades of lessons learned because of dead cops. The first step in resistance is non-compliance. Under the case law, de-escalation by immediate compliance is not optional. Note that the encounters described by members above could have been bad, but they did the right thing. BTDT myself.
One must own, read, and re-read the solid texts about threat and threat management if one wants to be part of the discourse. Start with "Officer Down, Code Three" and the excellent treatise by Patrick and Hall I have cited here before. "Left of Bang", though written by a Marine about urban combat during GWOT, has good lessons about observing and analysis of conduct to predict actions. We also need a "Snopes" for LE management to help them overcome the lunatic fringe drivel from people like Balko and the propaganda from Wexler at PERF. The only reason that belonging to PERF should not be cause for firing is if one is trying to counter its output and destroy it.
Oh he paid the ultimate price. But that’s not the same as bearing responsibility.
Oldsalt66
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Taken in their totality his actions are indefensible really.
YARN | If you'''re not cop, you'''re little people. | Blade Runner | Video clips by quotes | 863271a4 | 紗
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OP
Watch the video.
What the officer violated were laws at least 35 years old and the police use-of-force training that developed from those since the '90s, nothing from the post-Floyd era. These old rules require that when using deadly force, the recipient of the force should observably have the means and opportunity to place someone's life in immediate jeopardy and that because of the totality of the circumstances the person using force is precluded from taking a lesser action to effectively end the threat.
Know that the Fifth Judicial District Attorney's Office (for Otero and Lincoln Counties) is no stranger to handling police-involved shootings, but after reviewing the NMSP investigation of the matter, made an agreement for prosecution with the Second Judicial District Attorney's Office in Albuquerque which has far more experience.
In any event, my intent in the OP was to lay out an example for folks who carry firearms of things to think about before using deadly force.
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Oldsalt66
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The unfortunate decedent bore no responsibility, but he paid the ultimate price for the officer's fatal lack of professionalism.
Oldsalt66
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"The last time you looked" you apparently didn't actually watch the video, because the dead kid recieved a fatal mag dump from the officer while he was on the ground, had no weapon in his possession, and presented no threat.
BEFORE the officer even had fired his first volley:
Shamefully bad police shooting.
Before the advent of dash and body cams rogue police officers routinely got away with such shootings.
Hopefully the killer will be convicted on all counts.
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OP
Not correct on the mag dump while the decedent was on the ground according to NM police use of force training for the past 30 years. The deputy had both concealment and cover from the decedent, who never once pointed the BB gun at him, or even in his general direction.
