Squib Loads

skrazo

skrazo

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Took my 638 and 642 to the range yesterday. Fired 50 rounds of 158gr LSWC, 3.5 gr Red Dot, WSP primers. Had about 8 squibs. Both guns did it. One finally stuck about half way out of the end of the barrel of the 638 (easy to remove with pliers).

I have determined the culprit to be "many times cycled brass" (I have no idea how many times). Since I have about 400 pcs of this stuff, ............. is there a simple reliable way to determine which cases are no longer useable? And no ..... I am not "overexpanding" the case mouths. They are so tight sometimes they slightly shave a bit of lead from bullets. Also, no "split mouths". Sometimes bullets are still loose (will turn) after seating. I am seating and crimping in separate operations. Sorry for the long post, ..... just trying to anticipate questions that may come from responders.

Comments please .......... skrazo
 
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skrazo said:
....... is there a simple reliable way to determine which cases are no longer useable?
Click to expand...

When they split lengthwise starting at the neck they're no good.
Or the mouth is damaged enough to interfere with bullet seating or chambering.

Up to that point, load them.

I doubt your problem is "worn out" brass.

.
 
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3.5grs of Red with a 158gr Lswc out of my 686 6" is my most accurate loading for this weight bullet with a cci standard primer, that does 753 fps.

In my J frame snub the same bullet will clear the muzzle with no problems at just 571 fps with either Bullseye or IMR 4227 powders.

I do use a medium crimp on my loads, though............
my bullets do not turn after loading !!
 
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The usual cause of a "squib" load is a low charge of powder. Keep an eye on the level measured into each case.
I reload target 38 special loads like your's until the case cracks or splits, they generally last for many loading's. Red Dot doesn't need a lot of crimp to burn...they do well with little or no crimp in this instance. If the crimp didn't allow a complete burn you will have a fair amount of unburned powder left in the case...is there unburn't powder in those cases ? If not,
I'm suspecting it may be powder charge related.
Gary
 
gwpercle said:
The usual cause of a "squib" load is a low charge of powder. Keep an eye on the level measured into each case.
I reload target 38 special loads like your's until the case cracks or splits, they generally last for many loading's. Red Dot doesn't need a lot of crimp to burn...they do well with little or no crimp in this instance. If the crimp didn't allow a complete burn you will have a fair amount of unburned powder left in the case...is there unburn't powder in those cases ? If not,
I'm suspecting it may be powder charge related.
Gary
Click to expand...
A related cause is contamination. Can be melted bullet lube, can be grease left in the case. It might not take out the full charge, or even half. At less than 4 grains it really won't take much to do this.
 
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For the above shooting, I reloaded 150 rounds of 38's (and 50 rounds of 357's [fired them the same day] using WSP's for all). None of the 357's squibbed (Bullseye powder). So far, I have "disassembled about 50 of the remaining 100 rounds of 38's, weighing and recorded the amount of powder found in each cartridge --- all have been correct so far. I initially suspected the Lee Powder Measure (cartridge type), it appears to be doing OK. Will have to look closely at the fired 38 cases ... they could have unburned powder and I just did not notice (did not keep the squibs separate, but I do put the fired brass back into the plastic loading boxes, so they are 'mouth up'). The powder (Red Dot) is a one pound cannister, less than one year old. I always clean primer pockets and just "look" thru the flash holes -- could be some of them had a chunk of tumbling media in them?

Will report further as I progress on examining them. Thanks for replies thus far.........skrazo
 
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I have trouble thinking of a reason that cases could be responsible for squibs. Something else is going in, IMHO. I reload on a Dillion 550 for three different calibers and have, knock on wood, never had a squib. I tumble cases before I deprime.

As with other posters, I suspect faulty powder or primers since it appears your measure is working correctly.
 
Still suspecting contamination as a possibility.
I have a fair pile of heavy 44 mag of various flavors going back to the late 1900's
Between moving 3 times in the past 7 years and all the funky storage conditions that go with it, this stuff is showing signs of lube migration and powder contamination.
No all of them put out all they were loaded with.
in some cases I can find a ring of unburned H110 trapped in lube where the base of the bullet was.
Fortunately, I never really cared for bunny puff loads. There is nothing with less than 10 grains of powder. even if I lose 3 grains to melted lube, I still have at least 7 on the job. Plenty to get anything out the scary end and on its way even though it'll be a bit short of design intent.

Ive been switching over to coated cast which should mitigate this issue and make loads better suited to surviving storage with grace.

I have a feeling your situation is kinda similar in that your loads check out under inspection.
you only have to lose about a grain and a half to be down into the range of a 25 autos charge range.
 
You broke down the unfired ones, had 8 squibs and all the others fired OK?? There is of course no way to tell on what was in those 8.

The ones you broke down, did they all have exactly 3.5 grains??

You are using the LEE disc system? Yes? I do not know what "cartridge" type is?

3.5 gr is the Alliant load so I would guesstimate that your answer lies in the powder measure, it either needs to be cleaned, the charge hole did not fully come forward over the drop hole, short stroke or something. I use the LEE disc measure.

I doubt it is brass related.

If you size after cleaning then the sizing pin will clear the flash hole of any media.

The testing of other powder (BE) and 357 Brass just complicates the original issue.
 
skrazo said:
. . . Fired 50 rounds of 158gr LSWC, 3.5 gr Red Dot, WSP primers. Had about 8 squibs. Both guns did it. . . .

I have determined the culprit to be "many times cycled brass". . . is there a simple reliable way to determine which cases are no longer useable? And no ..... I am not "overexpanding" the case mouths. They are so tight sometimes they slightly shave a bit of lead from bullets. Also, no "split mouths". Sometimes bullets are still loose (will turn) after seating. I am seating and crimping in separate operations. Sorry for the long post, ..... just trying to anticipate questions that may come from responders.

Comments please .......... skrazo
Click to expand...
As others are, I'd encourage you to look elsewhere for the source of the problem.

How did you determine that overused brass caused the problem? For this to be true you would have to mention seeing something that you haven't reported. If it's just "can't think of anything else", that's not enough.

Why do some of your hopefully properly resized cases shave lead during seating while others are so wide the bullets can spin after seating? What press and procedures are you using?

Continuing the point above, what is the source of your bullets? Is it possible they are not uniformly sized?

How did you determine your powder charge was consistently 3.5gr? Squibs almost inevitably require almost no powder or contaminated powder.

Just trying to give you some places to look based on what you reported . . . but the Vegas odds are heavily in favor of no powder or contaminated powder.
 
I too was puzzled by some of the loads shaved the lead while others allowed the bullets to freely rotate, I don't think either situation is desirable. I really doubt the problem is your brass, if it's not split or damaged otherwise I can't see those being your problem. I would suspect the crimping. Bad primers or lack of powder maybe.
 
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It happens.



Loading plated bullets with too light a charge of Red Dot in the .455 out of deference to a circa 1899 revolver.
 
My Guess!

My Guess is that you need to take a long look at your powder measure. If you polish the brass before resizing the decappeing pin will clear the flash hole. If the bullet lobe has been thermal cycled in a trunk several times the bullet lube could be a factor.

My guess is contaminated primers or a large variation in charge weight are the problem. I have found that with light loads a tight crimp is a good thing. -If the seated bullet is the right diameter and will rotate with finger pressure you need to check your expander. I find in 38 that some mil spec brass they seat hard but that some commercial brass having thinner walls can be somewhat loose. I chuck up the expander and 000 steel wool it to my specs!
 
It ain't the brass.....

Skrazy:

If the brass isn't split, bulged or damaged in any way and it sizes and loads a bullet and chambers, it's good brass.

Bum primers?

Very low charge weight? Or MISSING powder charges? A primer alone has enough power to push a bullet into the barrel.

Plugged flash hole in the primer pocket? Walnut shells can do it as can other tumbling media.

Sometimes it's good to tap on a powder measure and hopper when its in the fill position break up bridging. A baffle helps that too, but I still like to knock it a couple times. Besides breaking up bridging if done consistently it can also give more uniform powder throws.
 
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Recap and answering some questions

I probably have provided too much information.

1) I mentioned the 357 loads only because all primers came from the same box (38 & 357). I felt this eliminated primers as a culprit.

2) So far, I have removed 50 bullets, weighed the powder charge of each on a beam type (Lyman O'Haus) scale. They ranged from 3.42 gr to 3.46 gr. Does not sound out of tolerance to me. Will do the remaining 50 as time permits.

3) Powder measure is a Lee disk type. Sometimes the "red dots" make it a bit harder to cycle.

4) Press is a Rock Chucker.

5) No unburned powder found in any of the fired cases.

6) The reason I suspect the cases is if the bullet is loose (only the crimp holding it), it would seem the powder does not have time to build up sufficient pressure before the bullet starts moving. Some chronographing a few months ago yielded an average muzzle velocity of 660 fps for these loads from the 642 and 638.

7)I'm going to reload about 20 rounds, making sure the bullet/case fit is tight, and fire them. Go from there.

8) Will keep pursuing this until I get it figured out. Once again ..... thanks for the replies ....... keep em' comin'.
 
I do not have any experience with Lee powder measures, however, I do know that with my Hornady measure, when I use a large flake powder like RD or 700X, it can hang up and almost clog the outbound end.
 
1) If you have bullets that are loose in the case with only the crimp retaining them you have a problem in your procedure or dies. Because in any caliber that doesn't use a heeled bullet your cases should provide enough Neck Tension to keep the bullet tight enough you need pliers to move it by hand.

What you have described is cases that have ZERO Neck Tension and I suspect that either they weren't sized at all or the flaring die was not set up properly. Either that or you were loading with cases that already had split necks. BTW, I have had cases split when pressing in the bullets and when that happens those cases get set aside to pull the components and have the cases thrown out in the trash. I have never ever tried to get "one last firing" on a split case, it just isn't worth the hassle with extraction and chamber fouling that would result from doing this.

2) ANYTIME you are working with a load that is distinctly light you need to do some testing for Position Sensitivity to insure you haven't created a load that can produce a squib. Personally I would normally consider a load producing 700 fps. to be reasonably free of any risk of a squib with lead bullets but with some powders this may NOT be a safe assumption. As I discovered with SR7625 at one time, the charge tested had enough variation in velocity to produce velocities ranging between 400 and 700 fps, all dependent on how the revolver was held prior to firing.

3) I started out loading with a Lee powder measure and have migrated to the RCBS Competition Powder Measure for a reason. Cheap Powder Measures just aren't worth the money spent on them and the RCBS is worth every penny spent.

4) I do a 50 piece Capability Study on any new powder I'm looking at using before loading one single round. Because some powders just to not meter well in any powder measure and it's best to know that ahead of time instead of finding it out the "hard way". If you have a powder charge of only 3 1/2 grains and the Standard Deviation indicates a potential variation of 1/2 grain it's just asking for a Squib to rely on your powder measure to set each charge. What you should be doing is hand weighing every single powder charge.

5) Finally I have to question your sanity a bit. You had a total of 8 squibs and didn't think it sensible to pack up and head home with the first squib??? The best result of firing into a squib lodged in a barrel is a ruined barrel, the worst result can result in a trip to the hospital in the back of an ambulance.
 
Are you roll crimping the case mouth into a crimp goove on the SWC
bullet? A roll crimp should help to promote complete combustion of
your powder.
 
3.5 is the maximum load for Red Dot for 38 Special. 3.8 grains is +P. I use red dot and your exact bullet and load 3.2 grains. Don't have a chronograph but the 3.2 is right in the middle of the road for that recipe.

Dumb question since I'm new at reloading, but have you checked your scale with check weights? I do that before every reloading session. I weigh every charge and red dot fluctuates pretty wildly for me. I have the thrower set for 3.2 grains and 8 times out of 10 I have to use the trickler to get it up to the 3.2. When the powder is gone (and it almost is) I'm not gonna use it anymore. Just doesn't meter that well.

New as I am, I guess my opinion doesn't matter much, but squibs mean not enough power to leave the barrel. So it's either too light a charge (or none at all) or the case tension is so loose that the pressure isn't enough to really launch the bullet. And I gotta think that there would be evidence of that in the case and well as in the cylinder. Do you check every case before you seat the bullet? Do you load on a progressive press and maybe those 8 rounds didn't get any powder at all?
 
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skrazo said:
...3) Powder measure is a Lee disk type. Sometimes the "red dots" make it a bit harder to cycle.
...
Click to expand...

So you have had issues with the powder measure hanging up with this particular powder? This, I suspect, is the root cause.
 
skrazo said:
I am not "overexpanding" the case mouths. They are so tight sometimes they slightly shave a bit of lead from bullets. Also, no "split mouths". Sometimes bullets are still loose (will turn) after seating.
Click to expand...

The same brass that shaves lead will result in a bullet that is loose and turns after seating? Or some pieces do one and some do the other? If it's mixed brass, I've noticed there are pretty clear differences in brass thickness. As an example, Remington revolver brass for me seems super thin. It sizes very easily, and has the least neck tension vs the other brass I have.

If the same piece of brass shaves lead and then leaves the bullet loose, perhaps it still has a bit of a crimp in the end and needs the mouth opened up more? I find the "M-style" neck expanders that Lyman, Redding, and I believe RCBS and Hornady use are much better for seating lead than the belling type die Lee uses.
 
As a former Lee equipment user, your powder disk is not returning completely to the fill position, you don't have the powder measure at least 50% full, and you may have significant variation in case length. My suggestion is that you check your powder measure for smooth operation and full cycling of the disk front to rear. My experience with Lee disk powder measures was that they functioned, had to be kept spotlessly clean, and there was no correlation between the list powder charge and the actual powder charge.

Military brass has the thickest walls and R-P have the thinnest. I have had 38 spl loads that the bullet would turn easily, but were accurate without any squibs.
 
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What's the diameter of the bullets? Is there large variance from bullet to bullet?

I would guess that you are afraid of working the brass too much and that is causing you to not expand enough and not crimp enough. If properly expanded you should not be shaving lead unless some of the bullets are oversized. If properly crimped the bullets should not move after crimped. Heck, the bullets shouldn't be able to move after being seated unless the bullets are undersized.

I have .357 brass that has been loaded 20+ times and it still functions like normal.
 
Simple reason for a squib, and the only one I can think of, is your load is too light. Really light. I load .38Sp with a mid range load and shoot it in a Model 52. I load cases over and over until they split. I've accidentally loaded a split case or two not noticing until after they were loaded. I shot them anyway, usually in a revolver, and tossed them out afterwards. Never a squib from a bad case. Light or no load is the only cause.
 
You mentioned pulling the rounds left and found proper powder charges so I'll assume the measure is working. The bullet rotating after seating caught my attention also. Case tension alone, as scooter123 said, should have you looking for pliers to turn a bullet. No case tension, no pressure. Either your bullet is undersized or your belling plug is way to deep.
The first time I switched from 44 special to 44 magnum I forgot all about the belling plug going deeper into the case. The first case I belled I knew what I did. A .430 bullet almost disappeared into the case!
 
Occam's Razor

The gun went bang and pushed the bullet part way down the chute, but not enough energy to clear. What's the most likely, and simplest explanation? If it happened to me I would assume no powder (simple operator reloading error) with other possibilities trailing a distant second, including component irregularity. Assembling ammunition with Lee equipment invites a host of goblins to vex your efforts unless you concentrate like a monk on a desert island. The lease imperfection in technique and something goes awry. All my Lee stuff has been given away to hapless former friends. A faulty primer would either fire (maybe with less accuracy) or not. Bad brass not yielding enough bullet pull would create inaccuracy, but an outright squib?? That would be a dangerous load recipe and yours was reasonable handbook stuff.
 
Lee Disk!

I have one of those powder measures on a Lee 1000 Pro I got in a trade. That and their primer feed are the reasons that It's seldom used. It will make a popping sound when it short charges or fails to load at all. I loaded 500 357 magnum loads and then found this trate. I weighed all 500 and found 38 that were very light or no powder. I was juat lucky that I was loading a stiff charge of H-110 so that the scale pointed them out!
 
I'm not familiar with Red Dot, but some bulky powders will "bridge" in the powder drop tube, and leave a case mostly empty, but the next case usually gets a "extra" charge. That's the reason for the "Stop and eyeball every single case in the loading block" before setting any bullets in. Brain fade happens to all of us, that's why we must develop good procedures, to catch our brain fades.
 
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