Standard issue of handgun ammunition during World War II?

[Naphtali]

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***
Among the major participants of World War II, what was the standard issue of ammunition for handguns issued to officers and, perhaps, non-commissioned officers?

Years ago, I was informed that the German army issued one box of pistol ammunition for the war. The rationale was that pistols were a "badge of office" rather than a weapon.

My father, at the time a captain in the U.S. Army Medical Corps, was issued a M1911A1 for the upcoming invasion of Leyte. (I believe guns were available for medical personnel because Japan was not a signatory of the Geneva Convention of 1929, and they had a track record of treating medical corps personnel as combatants.) Dad acquired several magazines and 750 rounds of ammunition. He practiced daily for two weeks prior to embarking. As it turned out, three things occurred: Dad never fired a shot at a human being; he had to ask an armorer to rebuild his pistol before embarking; and he became partially deaf from this practice. Despite my father's personal experience, I have no idea what was a "standard issue" of ammunition was in U.S. Army, if any, for pistols or revolvers.

If I had to bet, it would be that the United States was more flexible with handguns and handgun ammunition than other participants in the war, and that we had no rigorous "standard issue" of ammunition. But what about the othr countries, most of which had neither the traditional use of handguns nor the wealth and production capacity to manufacture tens of thousands of handguns when submachineguns overlapped handguns' intended use?

 

[GUNMIKE]

Interesting information.

 

[Tom Kent]

When I arrived in Viet Nam as a radio operator I was issued a 1911A1 with three magazines and a box of 50 rounds of .45acp. I could draw more ammo almost on request and I soon acquired several more magazines. I never saw a written order or regulation concerning a basic issue of pistol ammunition.

 

[murphydog]

The only information I have heard on this topic is the British would issue 12 rounds of .38 S & W with their Webley or Enfield revolver.

I would guess the standard issue would be one box of whatever standard size was available (50), but the number of rounds carried would vary by situation and supply; someone using the handgun a lot would get more ammo, if it was available.

 

[NYlakesider]

Moderator: If I have placed this in the incorrect sub-forum, please move it.
***
Among the major participants of World War II, what was the standard issue of ammunition for handguns issued to officers and, perhaps, non-commissioned officers?

Years ago, I was informed that the German army issued one box of pistol ammunition for the war. The rationale was that pistols were a "badge of office" rather than a weapon.

My father, at the time a captain in the U.S. Army Medical Corps, was issued a M1911A1 for the upcoming invasion of Leyte. (I believe guns were available for medical personnel because Japan was not a signatory of the Geneva Convention of 1929, and they had a track record of treating medical corps personnel as combatants.) Dad acquired several magazines and 750 rounds of ammunition. He practiced daily for two weeks prior to embarking. As it turned out, three things occurred: Dad never fired a shot at a human being; he had to ask an armorer to rebuild his pistol before embarking; and he became partially deaf from this practice. Despite my father's personal experience, I have no idea what was a "standard issue" of ammunition was in U.S. Army, if any, for pistols or revolvers.

If I had to bet, it would be that the United States was more flexible with handguns and handgun ammunition than other participants in the war, and that we had no rigorous "standard issue" of ammunition. But what about the othr countries, most of which had neither the traditional use of handguns nor the wealth and production capacity to manufacture tens of thousands of handguns when submachineguns overlapped handguns' intended use?

As there were plenty of Schmitzers <SPL>and a few other guns that fired 9mm, I would doubt a person having a handgun would have no problem being well stocked in ammo if he wanted it.

 

[Nevada Ed]

The only ammo that was offered when I was in the service for the 45 ACP was...........in the 1960's

was the Ball 230gr round nose that did around 850-865fps.

All Milt. ammo was "Ball type" for our Battalion.

 

[BE Mike]

Moderator: If I have placed this in the incorrect sub-forum, please move it.
***
Among the major participants of World War II, what was the standard issue of ammunition for handguns issued to officers and, perhaps, non-commissioned officers?

Years ago, I was informed that the German army issued one box of pistol ammunition for the war. The rationale was that pistols were a "badge of office" rather than a weapon.

My father, at the time a captain in the U.S. Army Medical Corps, was issued a M1911A1 for the upcoming invasion of Leyte. (I believe guns were available for medical personnel because Japan was not a signatory of the Geneva Convention of 1929, and they had a track record of treating medical corps personnel as combatants.) Dad acquired several magazines and 750 rounds of ammunition. He practiced daily for two weeks prior to embarking. As it turned out, three things occurred: Dad never fired a shot at a human being; he had to ask an armorer to rebuild his pistol before embarking; and he became partially deaf from this practice. Despite my father's personal experience, I have no idea what was a "standard issue" of ammunition was in U.S. Army, if any, for pistols or revolvers.

If I had to bet, it would be that the United States was more flexible with handguns and handgun ammunition than other participants in the war, and that we had no rigorous "standard issue" of ammunition. But what about the othr countries, most of which had neither the traditional use of handguns nor the wealth and production capacity to manufacture tens of thousands of handguns when submachineguns overlapped handguns' intended use?

I do believe the story about the Nazis thinking that officer's pistols were a badge of office. I wouldn't be surprised if the British primarily held the same opinion. Prior to and during the war, there was quite a class system still operating in many parts of Europe. Many officers were from the aristocratic level of society. The United States was far removed from that, especially by the time the war began. American officers were often from the middle class. American officers were issued side arms for personal defense since the school of thought was that when an officer was firing his weapon, he wasn't doing his job, as his job title involved directing and leading personnel. He had others working for him whose main job was to fire weapons, attack and maneuver to seize an objective or defend a position. I can only relate to the War in Vietnam. Those who were authorized to carry side arms, weren't restricted to certain levels of ammunition and most all company grade officers in the combat of arms were also issued long arms. My father was an enlisted man in the Pacific and was a high speed radio operator with the Signal Corps. He passed last year, but I know he was issued an M-1 carbine. I know that he on at least one occasion fired his carbine "in anger". He never complained that he ever ran short of ammunition.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

You are in luck!
Here's some WWII Ball for sale!

 

[BE Mike]

Moderator: If I have placed this in the incorrect sub-forum, please move it.
***
Among the major participants of World War II, what was the standard issue of ammunition for handguns issued to officers and, perhaps, non-commissioned officers?

Years ago, I was informed that the German army issued one box of pistol ammunition for the war. The rationale was that pistols were a "badge of office" rather than a weapon.

My father, at the time a captain in the U.S. Army Medical Corps, was issued a M1911A1 for the upcoming invasion of Leyte. (I believe guns were available for medical personnel because Japan was not a signatory of the Geneva Convention of 1929, and they had a track record of treating medical corps personnel as combatants.) Dad acquired several magazines and 750 rounds of ammunition. He practiced daily for two weeks prior to embarking. As it turned out, three things occurred: Dad never fired a shot at a human being; he had to ask an armorer to rebuild his pistol before embarking; and he became partially deaf from this practice. Despite my father's personal experience, I have no idea what was a "standard issue" of ammunition was in U.S. Army, if any, for pistols or revolvers.

If I had to bet, it would be that the United States was more flexible with handguns and handgun ammunition than other participants in the war, and that we had no rigorous "standard issue" of ammunition. But what about the othr countries, most of which had neither the traditional use of handguns nor the wealth and production capacity to manufacture tens of thousands of handguns when submachineguns overlapped handguns' intended use?

I do believe the story about the Nazis thinking that officer's pistols were a badge of office. I wouldn't be surprised if the British primarily held the same opinion. Prior to and during the war, there was quite a class system still operating in many parts of Europe. Many officers were from the aristocratic level of society. The United States was far removed from that, especially by the time the war began. American officers were often from the middle class. American officers were issued side arms for personal defense since the school of thought was that when an officer was firing his weapon, he wasn't doing his job, as his job title involved directing and leading personnel. He had others working for him whose main job was to fire weapons, attack and maneuver to seize an objective or defend a position. I can only relate to the War in Vietnam. Those who were authorized to carry side arms, weren't restricted to certain levels of ammunition and most all company grade officers in the combat of arms were also issued long arms. My father was an enlisted man in the Pacific and was a high speed radio operator with the Signal Corps. He passed last year, but I know he was issued an M-1 carbine. I know that he on at least one occasion fired his carbine "in anger". He never complained that he ever ran short of ammunition.

 

[CapnB]

Does anyone have a photo of the actual box or container that .38 Spl ammo was issued in during WWII? I have the 20 round WWI and Vietnam era M41 boxes, but haven't found anything to go with my Victory. Maybe the rounds were just issued by the handful.
Good shootin',
Doug

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Here's some WWII 38 Tracer.
I have carried and shot 38 Tracer, but not this Tracer!

 

[Naphtali]

Several replies focus on types of ammunition issued. My query pertains to amount - that is, 50 rounds for the war (Wehrmacht), and so on.​

 

[BE Mike]

Several replies focus on types of ammunition issued. My query pertains to amount - that is, 50 rounds for the war (Wehrmacht), and so on.​

You're likely not to find any specific issue of handgun ammo in any military manual, including the Nazi ones, if you can find one, but I could be wrong. See if you can find a WWII field manual for the 1911a1. That would be a good start...maybe here? Original Colt M1911 & M1911A1 Basic Field Manual (FM 23-35) >> Sight M1911

 

[Texas Star]

Read books by the men who fought. Sometimes, they'll tell you what they had and how much ammo.

As for the British, yes, 12 rounds was the normal issue for revolvers. An officer who was also a Member of Parliament, had trouble getting .38 ammo and bummed some from his general, who had a different caliber gun. (He was a staff officer). Another officer went into the Battle of El Alamein with just nine rounds of .38 ammo! But he killed an Italian.

Men with Colt .45 autos, the std. issue for Commando regiments, got more ammo, as did SOE, SAS, and other special personnel. I think at least two 14-round magazines were issued with Browning 9mm's late in the war. They could be reloaded with Sten gun ammo or captured German ammo..

Read, The Golden Carpet by the MP, and, Brazen Chariots, by Maj. Robert Crisp, DSO, etc. Crisp was a South African cricket player attached to the Royal Tank Regiment. He saw extensive action in N. Africa before being so seriously wounded that he was out of action until after the Normandy invasion! He commanded Stuart light tanks. He had a Tommy Gun or two aboard, and mentioned firing his .38 at German troops near his tank in a melee. Crisp was probably the source of the British naming the Stuart tank the Honey, for their use.

I think the story that Germans usually got one 25-round box of pistol ammo is basically true. But pistols were not just badges of rank. They were fired in battle, and many enlisted men had them, machinegun teams, MPs, tank and aircraft crews, paratroops, etc.

Look at war photos! They show some men with pistols and you can see if they had spare ammo, like the two pouches on a web belt for .45 autos, or Naval and Marine aviators with ammo in loops on the straps of shoulder holsters.

Sometimes, men had non-authorized sidearms, captured guns or taken from friendly dead. The ground crew chief for Maj. Erich Hartmann, a German fighter pilot with 352 kills, wasn't issued a pistol. Hartmann used his influence to get him one, although I don't think he specified just what. Probably a Walther PP like pilots had, or a P-08.

Don't assume that 9mm SMG ammo could always be used in pistols. Germany issued some very hot SMG-only rounds, and some had lighter, shorter bullets that don't let them feed well in pistols. The P-08, in particular, needs ammo of just the right length to work well.

I've fired hot Canadian 9mm ammo in Browning 9mm pistols, and it worked fine. You wouldn't normally fire a pistol a lot, as it was a sidearm, an emergency weapon.

Troops like Commandos, Long Range Desert Group, OSS agents, etc. got vastly more handgun training and more ammo than most soldiers.

And I suspect that local commanders specified who got what. But I've never read of US troops not having enough ammo for any of their weapons. I think Uncle Sam was more generous than many other nations.

Read books by combatants and look at photos. You'll learn a lot.

BTW, movies like, Flat Top and, The Bridges at Toko-Ri are very authentic in the pilots' sidearms. In the latter, also study their knives, on their vests. Very plausible. These films are on YouTube!

 

[tndrfttom]

A late friend served in Burma with the First Air Commando Group. He was a hunter and shooter before enlisting and kept up on the rifles, pistols and machine guns that the other forces had. (He related that during the time he was there he was exposed to various British, Indian and Gurka forces). He saw very few handguns among the British forces - usually .455 Webleys. The UK forces seemed to be short of everything including handgun ammo. He said he never knew of anyone having more than 6 cartridges for their Webleys so plinking or practicing with one was out of the question. (He jokingly said it was like they had to bring back six bodies before they could get 6 more cartridges). My friend would give the Brits .45 ACP ammo (plenty of that available) and they would fire that by using a pair of pliers to slightly crimp/deform the sides of a 45 ACP cartridge then they could press fit the cartridges into the chamber of a Webley. This 'press fit' arrangement allowed the .45 ACP cartridges to be fired for practice – empty cases were poked out with a stick or nail.

Not handgun related but ..... There was also a British Boys anti-tank rifle on the airfield that had been re-barreled with a .50 BMG barrel (limited supply of .55 Boys ammo but plenty of .50 cal. barrels and ammo around). The Indian and Gurka forces seemed to actually enjoy shooting the Boys rifle.

 

[American1776]

A late friend served in Burma with the First Air Commando Group. He was a hunter and shooter before enlisting and kept up on the rifles, pistols and machine guns that the other forces had. (He related that during the time he was there he was exposed to various British, Indian and Gurka forces). He saw very few handguns among the British forces - usually .455 Webleys. The UK forces seemed to be short of everything including handgun ammo. He said he never knew of anyone having more than 6 cartridges for their Webleys so plinking or practicing with one was out of the question. (He jokingly said it was like they had to bring back six bodies before they could get 6 more cartridges). My friend would give the Brits .45 ACP ammo (plenty of that available) and they would fire that by using a pair of pliers to slightly crimp/deform the sides of a 45 ACP cartridge then they could press fit the cartridges into the chamber of a Webley. This 'press fit' arrangement allowed the .45 ACP cartridges to be fired for practice – empty cases were poked out with a stick or nail.

Not handgun related but ..... There was also a British Boys anti-tank rifle on the airfield that had been re-barreled with a .50 BMG barrel (limited supply of .55 Boys ammo but plenty of .50 cal. barrels and ammo around). The Indian and Gurka forces seemed to actually enjoy shooting the Boys rifle.

Interesting stuff for sure.

I bet firing .45 acp in a Webley couldn't be good for the gun. I think I read that the acp is higher pressure than the .455 Webley cartridge. Desperate times call for extreme measures.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

The Marine Raiders used the Boys Rifle.
If resurfaced later in Korea.
Later, one popped up in NM!
This one is up at NRA Whittington.

 

[RETDOE]

Military Ammo Issue

I remeber many moons ago talking to my uncle about Vietnam, he was a crew chief on a USAF C-130. He told me he got issued a snub .38 but as soon as he got in country he scored a Hi-Power from a departing serviceman on his plane, paid $20 for it w/one full mag. He said he was able to secure one more full mag in his travels and carried it in a shoulder rig under his flight suit. He told me it was like the wild west as far as the gun market over there, one of his pilots carried a 2.5" .357 magnum that he bought from a departing soldier, he couldn't recall the make.

 

[desi2358]

The only actual documentation I've ever run across was for US paratroopers. It was a list of the standard issue load for each weapon issued for a combat jump. Every man who was issued a pistol received one pistol with holster, one spare mag pouch, three magazines and 21 rounds of ammunition to fill those three mags. This was felt to be an appropriate load considering all the other equipment he would be jumping with (and whether officer or member of a crew served weapon team the pistol was probably considered more for emergency use than a primary weapon). There would be re-supply ammo in the supply canisters and once on the ground it probably was up to the individual how much wanted to add to what he was carrying.

I would suspect that regular units followed the same pattern of ammo supply. With the widespread issue of the M1 Carbine to support troops and crew served weapons teams they seemed to have issued fewer handguns and there really wouldn't be any reason for any different pattern of ammo issue. Considering the anticipated amount of use for handguns by most people there would have been no reason for issuing more ammo than the three mags that were standard issue would hold.

As to other countries I can't say for sure. I've read stuff by various people who served in other armies, some only received enough to load the gun once, some only a small box with little chance for re-supply. As an ammo collector I find it interesting that Germany, for instance, issued 9mm ammunition in boxes that held just enough to load two magazines. Some other countries followed a similar pattern, the ammo was packaged in small quantities. Suitable for a couple magazines or perhaps the cylinder and the small ammo pouch on the issue holster... how many was a soldier issued? Don't know, have never run across any documentation for that.

 

[Texas Star]

A late friend served in Burma with the First Air Commando Group. He was a hunter and shooter before enlisting and kept up on the rifles, pistols and machine guns that the other forces had. (He related that during the time he was there he was exposed to various British, Indian and Gurka forces). He saw very few handguns among the British forces - usually .455 Webleys. The UK forces seemed to be short of everything including handgun ammo. He said he never knew of anyone having more than 6 cartridges for their Webleys so plinking or practicing with one was out of the question. (He jokingly said it was like they had to bring back six bodies before they could get 6 more cartridges). My friend would give the Brits .45 ACP ammo (plenty of that available) and they would fire that by using a pair of pliers to slightly crimp/deform the sides of a 45 ACP cartridge then they could press fit the cartridges into the chamber of a Webley. This 'press fit' arrangement allowed the .45 ACP cartridges to be fired for practice – empty cases were poked out with a stick or nail.

Not handgun related but ..... There was also a British Boys anti-tank rifle on the airfield that had been re-barreled with a .50 BMG barrel (limited supply of .55 Boys ammo but plenty of .50 cal. barrels and ammo around). The Indian and Gurka forces seemed to actually enjoy shooting the Boys rifle.

His account differs from what John Masters showed in his books, where he and various other British officers carried .38 revolvers, mainly. Look at the photos. You can see both No. 1 and No. IV rifles in use in Burma.

Lt. Ian MacHorton wrote, The Hundred Days of Lt.MacHorton. He was one of Wingate's Chindit troops and had a Thompson as well as a Colt .38-200. After a real crisis, he fled the Japanese, keeping the Colt and his Gurkha kukri, feeling the SMG and ammo were too heavy for him in making a stealthy retreat to India. I think he was also wounded.