Stopping Power - Knock Down Power

[Ribwizzard]

The problem is not the handguns or their projectiles. It's those darn criminals that refuse to behave in a consistent manner. Some don't want to be shot and quit right away, even with a minor non-disabling wound. Others are more hard headed, determined, pain tolerant, and goal oriented and won't stop until made to stop.

Until we can get them to react in a consistent manner to similar stimulus the categorizing the ability of a handgun round to incapacitate will continue to evade us.

Exactly my thoughts. We know the energy of the projectile, its marked right on the box. That is the knockdown capability ( in my opinion) of the round.
Its the targets ability to absorb or shed that energy that is up for debate.

I think there are a lot of shooters whose only experience is punching paper, and it's hard for them to understand the capabilities of modern handgun cartridges. If you go set up a dozen fire extinguishers, and shoot each with a different caliber, then you will see how a .357 zips right through both sides, while a .45acp just puts a big dent in one side and sends the darn thing flying around.

 

[nachogrande]

APPLES TO ORANGES?

I think there are a lot of shooters whose only experience is punching paper, and it's hard for them to understand the capabilities of modern handgun cartridges. If you go set up a dozen fire extinguishers, and shoot each with a different caliber, then you will see how a .357 zips right through both sides, while a .45acp just puts a big dent in one side and sends the darn thing flying around.[/QUOTE]

Now we have people to fire extinguishers. Few things are more unpredictable than gun shot wounds, from my exp with shooting animals & treating humans.

 

[fredj338]

Bullets don't incapacitate by crushing tissue. They incapacitate by damaging the CNS and by causing blood pressure to fall.

Expansion is iffy even in the faster handgun loads. It's virtually nonexistent in mouseguns. These latter are where FMJ or solid hardcast are needed most. Mousegun stop failures are penetration failures, not expansion failures.

Study anatomy and physiology, read autopsy reports and photos.

Semantics maybe, but a bullet that fails to hit the CNS is or should be crushing as much tissue as possible to allow for that blood pressure loss or organ failure. A smooth RNFMJ just does a lot less of that. Agree on the mousegun thing, why I never carry one. It will require a cns shot for any hope of rapid incapacitation. BTW I have & I do.

 

[fredj338]

Exactly my thoughts. We know the energy of the projectile, its marked right on the box. That is the knockdown capability ( in my opinion) of the round.
Its the targets ability to absorb or shed that energy that is up for debate.

I think there are a lot of shooters whose only experience is punching paper, and it's hard for them to understand the capabilities of modern handgun cartridges. If you go set up a dozen fire extinguishers, and shoot each with a different caliber, then you will see how a .357 zips right through both sides, while a .45acp just puts a big dent in one side and sends the darn thing flying around.

You, not unlike others, fails to understand energy as delivered by a handgun or rifle for that matter. In your so called example of energy transfer, a 45acp & a 357mag can have roughly the same energy. Energy has little to do with penetration thru hard objects. Sec Den of solids & bullet construction play a huge role in that. AS an example, a 300gr solid in a 44mag will out penetrate most heavy caliber rifle softs. Yet I know which one I want if hunting or defense with dangerous game.
Look at the service calibers, they all have roughly the same energy. The bullet is the important part. A RN solid pokes a smooth hole. A JHP tears & crushes tissue. Most of the energy everyone is so fond of quoting is used up deforming the bullet, not much is transferred to the target & even then, target mass is a huge consideration. A large target mass does not stretch as much as a small target mass. So the temporary wound channel means less on a larger target. In the end we are punching holes & bigger holes are better than smaller ones. Why we use expanding bullets, to make them bigger for punching bigger holes. Energy, in service calibers, all about the same. 100ft# +/- isn't moving the needle much, especially if the bullet isn't designed to do the work

 

[Muss Muggins]

“Stopping Power” is making that nice fella decide he has something better to do at the moment. “Knockdown Power” is making him lay on the deck before he makes that decision. Anything else is “killing . . . “

 

[Ribwizzard]

You, not unlike others, fails to understand energy as delivered by a handgun or rifle for that matter. In your so called example of energy transfer, a 45acp & a 357mag can have roughly the same energy. Energy has little to do with penetration thru hard objects. Sec Den of solids & bullet construction play a huge role in that. AS an example, a 300gr solid in a 44mag will out penetrate most heavy caliber rifle softs. Yet I know which one I want if hunting or defense with dangerous game.
Look at the service calibers, they all have roughly the same energy. The bullet is the important part. A RN solid pokes a smooth hole. A JHP tears & crushes tissue. Most of the energy everyone is so fond of quoting is used up deforming the bullet, not much is transferred to the target & even then, target mass is a huge consideration. A large target mass does not stretch as much as a small target mass. So the temporary wound channel means less on a larger target. In the end we are punching holes & bigger holes are better than smaller ones. Why we use expanding bullets, to make them bigger for punching bigger holes. Energy, in service calibers, all about the same. 100ft# +/- isn't moving the needle much, especially if the bullet isn't designed to do the work

Uh, not sure what I failed to understand, basically said same as you with a lot less words???

 

[Univibe]

"Energy Transfer" is another similar myth. Transferring energy, whatever that is, doesn't kill people. A 10mm to the chest delivers very little energy. It hardly disturbed the shooter, did it?

Poking holes in vital organs is what kills people.

 

[fredj338]

Uh, not sure what I failed to understand, basically said same as you with a lot less words???

Because you think energy has something to do with steel cylinder penetration. Which it does not. There less words.
Lets go the other direction though, might help you grasp this. Take a heavy steel target & whack it with a 230gr 45 @ 850fps, see how fast it falls over. then hit it with a higher energy 357mag 110gr JHP, see how it fails to fall at all or very slowly. More energy, what happened to it?? Momentum is working here, energy not so much. Sorry needed more words there. If I could draw you a picture I would.

 

[fredj338]

"Energy Transfer" is another similar myth. Transferring energy, whatever that is, doesn't kill people. A 10mm to the chest delivers very little energy. It hardly disturbed the shooter, did it?

Poking holes in vital organs is what kills people.

Yet we still in the 21st century hear people quoting "energy dump". A simple test for anyone that cares. Take a bullet, any bullet, smash it flat with a hammer then pick it up immediately. You will feel it is quite warm, even hot. That is the energy being used to deform the bullet. IT has to go someplace so it becomes heat. With expanding bullets, much of the muzzle energy is used to expand the bullet & propel it thru the target. How much actual energy the target absorbs is almost impossible to measure but it is very minimal unless bone or solid organs are hit.

 

[686-380]

How do YOU like to gamble?

You may get one or two opinions on this one.

Literally speaking, defining "knockdown power" is easy - for every action there is (or should be) an equal and opposite reaction. If shooting a gun doesn't generate enough energy to make the shooter fall over, it cannot make the target fall over if it is of roughly equal mass, or even a substantial fraction.

The effects of the projectile(s) in the target may cause all sorts of damage that may cause it to fall, but it is not the recoil energy that does this. If you shot a .600 (or better still, a .700) Nitro Express into a 150 lb target that was able to contain all the bullet's energy you might see it fall over. Maybe both barrels of a 10 ga double too?

Likewise, "stopping power" is also subjective. In 95% + of self defense incidents, any gun has 100% stopping power, because no shots needed to be fired. In the many of the remaining instances the noise or a non-serious (but still painful) effects of a shot will end the situation for psychological reasons.

But if you are referring to commonly carried handgun use, none of them can be counted upon to immediately stop a threat reliably close to 100% of the time, especially with one shot. This has been documented here numerous times by LEOs. That is why fast, accurate, multiple hits in vital areas with any handgun is the goal; and this still may not work all the time.

Stopping power, for me doesn't depend upon simply death but neutralizing the threat. My mouth, so far, has successfully de-escalated every situation. I don't know the caliber but I gotta big one.

I consider the physical profile of my firearm to have stopping power too. I'd prefer to have a S&W Governor with me most of the time but that's not feasible. But by golly, it's an intimidating weapon.

While I'm out and about, I carry either a small(ish) .40 or diminutive. 380. If possible, I'll employ my largest defensive caliber (mouth) first... and perhaps my firearm.

If I have to shoot my gun, I foresee potential questions like "how come he fired SO many times?!"

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

“Stopping Power” is making that nice fella decide he has something better to do at the moment. “Knockdown Power” is making him lay on the deck before he makes that decision. Anything else is “killing . . . “

Or, quite often, none of the above.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Or, quite often, none of the above.

Totally disagree. Look at all the recent civilian shoots over parking spaces and other minutia. Somebody always dies. Nobody asks what ammo was loaded up . . .

 

[Ribwizzard]

Because you think energy has something to do with steel cylinder penetration. Which it does not. There less words.
Lets go the other direction though, might help you grasp this. Take a heavy steel target & whack it with a 230gr 45 @ 850fps, see how fast it falls over. then hit it with a higher energy 357mag 110gr JHP, see how it fails to fall at all or very slowly. More energy, what happened to it?? Momentum is working here, energy not so much. Sorry needed more words there. If I could draw you a picture I would.

Sorry your still confused.
Kinetic energy is still there, the speed of the projectile is part of the equation of how you get 850 ft lbs out of that .45 slug. Mass + velocity. The difference is in the speed in which the projectile hits the target is how you get penetration, that is where force comes into play. And why a bowling ball at 30mph having same kinetic energy as a .357 will not penetrate 3/4 plywood but the. 357 will all day. Its applying its energy to the plywood way faster.

 

[nachogrande]

WHO'S GONNA BELIEVE A WELSHER?

Gotta get me a mouth piece. Where's Caj when you need him, OR Professor Proton?

 

[Art Doc]

If a bullet could knock a man down firing it would also knock down the shooter. Damn Newton's Third Law.

I saw a 130 pound guy take 4 solid torso hits from a 45 ACP with 230 grain ammo and he never flinched. Ran 25 yards and collapsed when he bled out.

If you damage the spine a man will drop...right now. If you see a man shot and he drops instantly likely a spine shot.

A big bullet in the pelvic girdle may also cause a man to hit the ground.

Otherwise, he stays on his feet running or fighting until loss of blood or malfunctioning organs shut him down.

 

[Ribwizzard]

If a bullet could knock a man down firing it would also knock down the shooter. Damn Newton's Third Law.
.

No, not how it works, please read previous posts

 

[nachogrande]

PHYSICS, JESH.

I prefer the clang & dimple method for determining kinetic energy transfer. Whichever bullet make the loudest clang & deepest dimple on the steel plate wins. When a deer rifle puts a hole in the plate, then it gets complicated, distance traveld, speed, the aureola effect etc.

 

[hkcavalier]

1990 called and wants its debate back.

CNS hits are the only sure fight-stoppers, hence the penetration emphasis of the FBI. Mossad killed/kills plenty with .22s, and they don't aim for the shoulder.

The caliber wars are long over. 5.7? Sure. .50GI? I guess. Just hit center mass.

I feel the most important reason to have an expanding bullet in the 350 ft-lb class and above is to avoid overpenetration and negligent destruction beyond the intended target. The "grenade in flesh" or energy transfer concept behind now-obsolete designs like the 9mm 115gr Silvertip and the .357 110gr Hi-Vel has been disproven, period.

 

[Frogwalking]

From another angle: When staying at a hotel, I am concerned about innocents that may be staying in rooms across the hall or around me. I think I would rather be killed myself than to kill a child.

What say you about that?

If you don't like this line of thinking, just remember; I am a frog. What do we know?

 

[fredj338]

Sorry your still confused.
Kinetic energy is still there, the speed of the projectile is part of the equation of how you get 850 ft lbs out of that .45 slug. Mass + velocity. The difference is in the speed in which the projectile hits the target is how you get penetration, that is where force comes into play. And why a bowling ball at 30mph having same kinetic energy as a .357 will not penetrate 3/4 plywood but the. 357 will all day. Its applying its energy to the plywood way faster.

Not confused at all rib, I know handgun bullet energy is pretty minimal. Without the bullet exoanding, solids, ME is virtually useless unless bone is hit. Hunt, shoot living things bigger than rabbits, you see exactly how unimportant ME is to the effectiveness of handgun calibers.