Stopping Power - Knock Down Power

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

It’s been stated everywhere that there is no such thing as Stopping Power or Knock Down Power.

So that being the case, what DO you call it?

Well, I am not sure that that is the case. I don't know what your definition of stopping power or knock-down power is. However, it probably has very little to do with bullets launched from handguns, rifles or shotguns.

And I don't call "it" anything. What the first two weapons do is poke holes in things. The third usually pokes numerous holes in things. This has virtually nothing to do with knocking things down, except maybe bowling pins. It can have a lot to do with stopping human beings from doing what they are doing, but it is not actually a quality of the bullet, its construction, or its velocity, although those do enter into the result. It's mostly about where you poke the hole or holes. The fact that you usually can't completely control where you poke the holes, and are lucky just to get to some general area, doesn't alter the fact the exact location is very important. One shot in one part of the heart (I'll bet you don't even know where it is) gets one result, another very nearby part gets an entirely different result. Same for the brain. And I doubt that most defensive can guarantee a hit in either neighborhood.

In practical terms, that usually means that "stopping power" is mostly luck. Obviously, that does hint that several loads of buckshot or 15 hits with a 9mm improve your chances of getting lucky.

 

[nachogrande]

I'LL PLAY

WHAT IS THE S/A NODE FOR 500 ALEX.

 

[BB57]

No, it’s not at all complicated, unless you want to make it complicated with NASA level analysis. As a related aside, have we ever heard anything about any of the ammo used in the various questionable self defense shoots exhaustively discussed recently on this forum? I bet there was no more research into those loads than I gave to breakfast this morning . . .

Edit: By my penultimate statement, I mean those arguably questionable shoots that resulted in a fatality. At least two over handicapped parking. . .

If it wasn't complicated, people would not have been arguing about it for years, and the FBI in particular would not have reversed it's theoretical course at least twice in pursuit of a decent round.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Done here. It’s complicated if you make it complicated, which having retired from the Yankee Gov’t, I am well aware that they do . . .

Edit: I once sat thru a four meeting with two agenda items. The Oxford comma, and affect vs. effect. We resolved neither issue . . .

If it wasn't complicated, people would not have been arguing about it for years, and the FBI in particular would not have reversed it's theoretical course at least twice in pursuit of a decent round.

 

[Ribwizzard]

But people routinely get shot with .45ACP rounds and not only don't get knocked down, continue to fight

Yes, different targets can absorb energy differently, that's where shot placement becomes involved.
But that has nothing to do with x grams of lead, traveling y ft per secound= z ft lbs of kinetic energy.

Every box of ammo has the specs written right on it.

My only point here is to dismiss the ideal that the gun recoil would be equal to the kinetic energy of the projectile ( people saying it would knock the shooter down as well) which is absolutely absurd. It's like saying a 1/2" impact wrench applies the same torque to your wrist as it does the fasteners. We would have a lot of mechanics breaking their wrists every day.

 

[jag312]

Shoot me in the foot with a .44 Magnum, and I'll kill you with a .22 to the head.

 

[nachogrande]

KEEP AN EYE OUT.

Well, I am not sure that that is the case. I don't know what your definition of stopping power or knock-down power is. However, it probably has very little to do with bullets launched from handguns, rifles or shotguns.

And I don't call "it" anything. What the first two weapons do is poke holes in things. The third usually pokes numerous holes in things. This has virtually nothing to do with knocking things down, except maybe bowling pins. It can have a lot to do with stopping human beings from doing what they are doing, but it is not actually a quality of the bullet, its construction, or its velocity, although those do enter into the result. It's mostly about where you poke the hole or holes. The fact that you usually can't completely control where you poke the holes, and are lucky just to get to some general area, doesn't alter the fact the exact location is very important. One shot in one part of the heart (I'll bet you don't even know where it is) gets one result, another very nearby part gets an entirely different result. Same for the brain. And I doubt that most defensive can guarantee a hit in either neighborhood.

In practical terms, that usually means that "stopping power" is mostly luck. Obviously, that does hint that several loads of buckshot or 15 hits with a 9mm improve your chances of getting lucky.

I'll PM you where to send my 500 $$$ winnings.

 

[10ring]

Never mind.

 

[Johnrh]

Hit him with a rock in the right place and he'll go down. Any bullet of any caliber will bring someone down. There is no need to get all worked up over which is bigger, mine our yours. I chuckle when I read all this hype over stopping power, gel tests, penetration, expansion, caliber wars etc etc. All fluff. Hit him in the right place and plop.

 

[ExRanger714]

Stopping power is in the mind of the recipient. If one recipient determines that if you are shot, you are shot, and if shot should go down, and does, he is stopped.

I.E. I asked a game warden why he went down and quit in a gunfight after receiving a forearm flesh wound from a 22 magnum an ex-USMC Highway Patrol Sergeant beside him answered for him and said "well son, when you are shot, you are shot."

Compare that to the guy that was shot 33 individual times with issue 9mm ammo and still went on and killed an officer with a knife: shot to doll rags but a long way from stopped.

 

[BB57]

Edit: I once sat thru a four meeting with two agenda items. The Oxford comma, and affect vs. effect. We resolved neither issue . . .

I hear you on that. We were told once we could not use the word "impact" in reports. Sounded too harsh apparently and offended some people.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I hear you on that. We were told once we could not use the word "impact" in reports. Sounded too harsh apparently and offended some people.

We eventually resolved the affect/effect debate by implementing the use of “impact” where appropriate . . .

 

[fredj338]

#1 is correct. Bullets kill / "stop" people by blowing holes in central nervous system, or by blowing holes in big vessels and depressurizing the cardiovascular system. Shot placement and penetration are all that count.

#2 not really. The ER doctor and medical examiner can't tell, from the entrance, exit, or wound track, what caliber or weight it was, or whether it expanded or not. Many handgun bullets fail to expand. You can't tell any of this unless you recover the bullet. Bullets that have killed people usually don't look anything like the flowers and mushrooms in the ammo ads.

All this is why I load FMJ in my carry gunss.

Except a rnfmj plows a small, smooth wound, crushing very little tissue. But for small mousegun calibers, absolutley no reason for ball ammo when a jhp will crush & tear tissue, bigger hole, faster end to the fight.

 

[fredj338]

If it wasn't complicated, people would not have been arguing about it for years, and the FBI in particular would not have reversed it's theoretical course at least twice in pursuit of a decent round.

I agree with Muggins, it isnt complicated. Fire a jhp bullet that can reach a decent size expanded dia with enough mass & vel to penetrate to vitals. We have that in service calibers with several diff manuf. Choose a medium to heavy for caliber wt, practice a lot, you are gtg.

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

Unicorns don't exist and I call unicorns "unicorns."
Stopping power doesn't exist and I call stopping power "stopping power."
Knockdown power doesn't exist and I call knockdown power "knockdown power."

I hope that helps.

 

[shouldazagged]

...I once sat thru a four meeting with two agenda items. The Oxford comma, and affect vs. effect. We resolved neither issue . . .

One of the best supervisors I ever had, in fifty-five years of not-terribly-gainful employment, used to say, "Any meeting that lasts over half an hour has been poorly planned."

Unfortunately he was the only one like that.

 

[Univibe]

Here are the tough questions:

What is the definition of stopping power? How is it measured? What it the unit of stopping power? How many units does a 9mm have? A .44 magnum? What is the correlation of stopping power and observed effects on people? Is there an equation or statistical model that can predict such effects?

If you can't answer these questions, it ain't science, and we begin to expect that stopping power does not exist.

 

[Univibe]

Except a rnfmj plows a small, smooth wound, crushing very little tissue. But for small mousegun calibers, absolutley no reason for ball ammo when a jhp will crush & tear tissue, bigger hole, faster end to the fight.

Bullets don't incapacitate by crushing tissue. They incapacitate by damaging the CNS and by causing blood pressure to fall.

Expansion is iffy even in the faster handgun loads. It's virtually nonexistent in mouseguns. These latter are where FMJ or solid hardcast are needed most. Mousegun stop failures are penetration failures, not expansion failures.

Study anatomy and physiology, read autopsy reports and photos.

 

[Goldstar225]

The problem is not the handguns or their projectiles. It's those darn criminals that refuse to behave in a consistent manner. Some don't want to be shot and quit right away, even with a minor non-disabling wound. Others are more hard headed, determined, pain tolerant, and goal oriented and won't stop until made to stop.

Until we can get them to react in a consistent manner to similar stimulus the categorizing the ability of a handgun round to incapacitate will continue to evade us.

 

[Texas40]

Well in general as far as SD
Any gun is better than NO gun
And hitting the target center mass and or vital areas is paramount. A BB gun can kill with proper shot placement and range.


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