Strange markings on S&W 1 1/2 model

[Patbar]

I have recently seen a 3 1/2 inches n° 1 1/2 first model with the three patents of 1855, 1859 and 1865 markings, but the "1855" is missing after "Apr.3" (see photo below).

Also, a friend of mine is about to buy an another gun with the 4 inches barrel, and the same "1855" is missing too.

Is this a common marking error ?

 

[glowe]

I have owned 2 with that missing year 1855 and 5 with 1855. 18732 1st with 4 digit years and 23144 1st 4 digit years. 85771 2nd with 2 digit years Issues. Apparently, there were several different stamps used though the years.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


I currently own three First Issues. Serial Numbers: 102, 18629
and 23569. SN 102 has the earlier patent date stamp w/o the
1865 patent date. This one has the 1855 patent date w/ a four
digit year.

The other two are later production and have the added 1865
patent date. And both of these lack the 1855 year after the
Apr. 3rd.

It is my understanding that the die used to stamp the top rib
of the first issue changed to include the Nov. 21, 1865 date
sometime between serial numbers 15304 and 15653 (accord-
ing to the Neil & Jinks "Old Testament").

Does anyone have a 1-1/2 First Issue with the 1865 pat. date
and has the 1855 year stamp too? I just assumed the 1855
year was dropped to make room for the the later 1865 pat.
info.

Here are the top rib stamps as they appear in the order: 102,
18629 and 23569.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[Patbar]

.............................................
Does anyone have a 1-1/2 First Issue with the 1865 pat. date
and has the 1855 year stamp too? I just assumed the 1855
year was dropped to make room for the the later 1865 pat.
info.
..............................................
Webb

My Mongrel has the three patents stamp with the four digit 1855, 1859 and 1865 and I have also seen first models with the same stamp.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

My Mongrel has the three patents stamp with the four digit 1855, 1859 and 1865 and I have also seen first models with the same stamp.

Okay, could you post a pic of the markings on your mongrel?
I assume your mongrel is in the 27000 to 28000 serial number
range.

If anybody else has seen these three patent dates, complete
with the 1855 year stamp on a first issue model 1-1/2, please
post a pic of the markings and give the serial number of the
gun. We may be able to determine a serial number range for
this unusual marking.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[Patbar]

Hi Webb,

Here is a picture of my mongrel barrel serial 28245. I hope this picture will be clear enough as the gun has been buffed and reblued.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Hi Webb,

Here is a picture of my mongrel barrel serial 28245. I hope this picture will be clear enough as the gun has been buffed and reblued.

Thanks for the pic. Unfortunately, I cannot make out anything
after the "1859 & ...." But it is a different die than the examples
I posted. It would be nice to see a clearer example.

I hope someone can post a pic of a first issue with this stamp-
ing.


Cheers!

 

[Patbar]

Yes, I can see the 1865 patent with a magnifier, but it is too faint to be lisible on a photo.

 

[bibain]

n1 1/2 1 issue sn 1933 pat 1855 & 1859
n1 1/2 1 issue sn 18385 pat 1859 & 1865
n1 1/2 1 issue sn 19245 4p pat 1859 & 1865
n1 1/2 transition sn 27358 pat 1855 1859 & 1865
n1 1/2 transition sn 27381 pat 1855 1859 & 1865
n1 1/2 transition sn 27880 pat 1855 1859 & 1865


sylvain

 

[bibain]

n1 1/2 1 issue sn 9206 pat 1855 & 1859
n1 1/2 1 issue sn 19353 4p pat 1859 & 1865

pictures for the n1 1/2 transition
No pictures for the 9206 and 19353

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Excellent pics! But I am getting confused as which pic goes with
what serial number. Also I don't know what the "4p" in "4p pat
1859 & 1865" means.

I see you have listed several mongrels. Jinks reported that there
were 1500 left over barrels and cylinders at Savage & King
and they had been "completed." The mongrels are supposed to
have used these parts. The question in my mind is how
"completed" were they. If the cylinders had been cut with the
cylinder stop notches, Those cylinders could only be used on
first issue 1-1/2's because of the different locations of the
cylinder stop between the first and second issues. So, either
S&W had to make new cylinders for the mongrels or the
notches had not been cut and S&W finished the cylinders to
suit the application (i.e. the mongrel).

Therefore, I think there is more to the "mongrel" story than
has been uncovered so far.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[bibain]

Hello
Regarding the serial numbers, they are on the name of the pictures (xxx.jpeg)
The 4p: these are the 4-inch guns
Regarding mongrel, the records consulted by R G Jinks are the only reliable information I know of.
It is possible that the barrels and cylinders were finished and adjusted at the Smith & Wesson factories.
Don't forget that there are n1 ½ 2 issues in the mongrel numbers (27200 to 28800)
What intrigues me are these two symbols that we find on the frame of all the mongrel that I observed, none on the n1 ½ 2 issue (see pictures)

sylvain

 

[Patbar]

.......................................
What intrigues me are these two symbols that we find on the frame of all the mongrel that I observed, none on the n1 ½ 2 issue (see pictures)
sylvain

Hello Sylvain,

I also have the "Y" on the right side of the grîp of my mongrel, but not the other symbol that you have on yours.

But what puzzles me even more is that altough the barrels of these mongrels are those of the first model, the markings are different, the latest first model having the "55" omitted and only the last two digits of the years 1859 and 1865, while the mongrels seem to all have the three years with 4 digits.

 

[bibain]

it is one of these two symbols, but not both together .
It seems to me that only mongrel have one of these two symbols, perhaps complementary to the assembly numbers

regarding the patents, these are those of n 1 1/2 2 issue

N 1 ½ transition
SMITH&WESSON.SPRINGFIELD
PAT D APR.3.1855.JULY 5.1859&NOV.21.1865

N 1 ½ 2 issue
SMITH&WESSON.SPRINGFIELD MASS PAT D APR.3.1855.JULY 5.1859&NOV.21.1865



sylvain

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Thanks for the explanations. Those marks on the grip frame are
interesting. I wonder if there is any correlation between them
and which contract/country they were shipped to.


Cheers!
Webb