Strange Model 1905

m-1911

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
1,230
Reaction score
258
City & State/Province
PA
100_8698.jpg


100_8697.jpg




I picked up this one up at an auction today. I call this a strange Model 1905 because it is a configuration that I do not remember having seen before. Serial number is 714025 which I would date to early 1941. It has a 6 inch barrel and is chambered in 38 S&W rather than the more common 38 Special. It also has a factory installed lanyard swivel. There are no British proofs or other extra markings.
I would appreciate any info or comments.
 
Really lovely example you have there! Wow...but for a hint of Muzzle wear, all else appears quite minty and fresh.

If I understand correctly, these .38 S&W Chambering 'M&P's were being made for anyone who wished to purchase or Order them, which of course, were primarily British or Crown Colony or former Crown Colony or 'UK' Countries or places, usually purchasing through Agents of one sort or another.

While most went to Britain, many also went elsewhere, and, would either have some other sort of 'stamps' showing the proprietary approval/acceptence/ownership, or, if having gone to other localles, then sometimes no stamps at all.

Of course, anyone in the US could order one, if they liked, also, though I doubt many people did.

After 1957, the .38 S&W Chambering of the 'M&P' became the "Model 11".

If memory serve...
 
Last edited:
Gary,
Not really strange at all.
You have an early BSR that the Brits got screwed out of. :D
It probably got diverted for stateside security use of some kind.
All the early contract guns looked that way- basically a commercial gun with a swivel and lesser polish than earlier guns. Hold it beside a 1938-39 M&P and you will see a great difference in the polish.

Here's example 701178 that the Brit's did receive-
RAF 38/200 BSR

Below is 795708 in 38 Special. I doubt you could get an M&P at that time without a swivel.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_7072.jpg
    IMG_7072.jpg
    45.5 KB
Gary,

Very nice looking!

I'm sure you would have mentioned it if there were... but... are there any stampings on the backstrap? Maybe a "U" with some numbers?
 
One of my brothers once owned one of these six-inch British-shipped guns. They're around, if not as common as the five-inchers. Many with four inch barrels were sent to South Africa, which is what Digi-Shots was probing for. (She is a superb photographer with an interest in the South African shipments.)

As an aside, my brother decided to dry-fire his one night when I wasn't home. He was still a teen then...He forgot to unload, and put a 146 grain lead bullet into a thick book lying flat on one of my bookcases. It penetrated only about an inch, which didn't leave an impression of great power. The book was hit near the spine, on the bottom edge as it lay flat, the end facing him at eye level. I hope the bullet penetrates better in flesh than it does in dense, slick paper! Probably does.

I saw a wartime photo of RAF personnel in formation, wearing these six-inch guns in North Africa. They had the usual Pattern 37 webbing holsters, made for guns with five-inch barrels. The butts stuck WAY out, and the longer guns probably stretched the holster flaps. I'm surprised that the flaps would even snap shut.

The finish appears to be a commercial blue, although I agree with Lee that prewar commercial guns were more brightly polished. However, the one that my brother had was in NRA Excellent condition, and the finish was definitely brighter than on some commercial M&P's made in the 1940's and '50's. Those were actually dull in comparison, little better than on the M-28. Indeed, I have seen individual M-28's that had a brighter blue than was on some postwar M&P's.

Oh: RAF holsters were usually grey, Army holsters were sort of olive green. I think the Royal Navy used mainly white holsters, and some Army MP's also had white ones. However, those were probably for headquarters duty and for parades.

I have also seen one of these six-inch guns on the desk of some Army sergeant. He was in some headquarters or communications office. Not all of those longer barrels were RAF-issued.
 
Last edited:
Gary,

Very nice looking!

I'm sure you would have mentioned it if there were... but... are there any stampings on the backstrap? Maybe a "U" with some numbers?

Linda

No other markings
 
Whats your take on this M1905 4th change shipped 11-17 that is US marked? I have a letter on the way, but I have never heard of any of these from WW1. Has a "P" on the butt, cylinder, and bbl. All numbers match. U.S. is on the left side on the frame under the cyl. No lanyard loop. Anyone else have one of these? Thanks, Big Larry

standard.jpg


standard.jpg
 
My take is you probably hit a home run.
I saw that gun the first time you posted it, and lusted for it.
 
Linda

No other markings

Oh well... just a thought! I have s/n 707445 that shipped to the Union of So. Africa in September of 1940. The gun shows post war BNP Brit stampings plus a "U" 6542 on the backstrap.
 
Larry-a lot of US arms were shipped to England when the call went out for more guns. It wouldn't surprise me to see that a 1905 was put in service and shipped as well.

Linda-would that "U" stand for Union of South Africa and the number be the number of the gun within the whole group shipped. It does seem like a high number though. Would a shipment to South Africa have contained that many guns???
 
Linda-would that "U" stand for Union of South Africa and the number be the number of the gun within the whole group shipped. It does seem like a high number though. Would a shipment to South Africa have contained that many guns???

James, yes, the "U" would be for the Union of So. Africa. Here are the numbers I've got for orders placed although I don't think they all actually made it to So. Africa but were rerouted to Britain. Part of the 1st order placed on 2/19/40 was shipped on 5/3/40 (1200 guns) & 5/22/40 (1400 guns). These May shipments appear to have been delivered to Britain and show up with post war British proof marks and have no "U" or back strap stampings. There may be an early June shipment that also has post war British proofs. There are some guns showing a July 1940 ship date that have both the "U" and backstrap stampings.

Order placed 2/19/40.... 8,880
Order placed 9/09/40.... 5,047
Order placed 6/07/41.... 7,500

I believe Peter, from So. Africa, has recorded a backstrap number as high as 10,538 and there's one in Charles Pate's book of 10,013 (located at the Imperial Ware Museum, London).

s/n 803,237 shipped 9/24/41 and has "U" 17681 on the backstrap.
 
Lee, a letter is forthcoming, but when I wrote Mr. Jinks for a shipping date, his answer was something to the effect that the US was there and probably meant made in the US. I don't know if he read the entire factory letter when he gave me the shipping date. The markings appear to be legit. I have dealt with fake markings the entire time I collected US Martial Arms, and thought I could spot a fake. I didn't really pay a premium for this gun,$600, for a very nice 4th change, so I kind of figured it was legit. If it is fake, they did one heck of a good job at it. The markings appear to have been blued over and I am quite sure the finish has not been redone, but after so many years, the markings may have darkened as they may have been applied after the fact and that would have left exposed bare metal. The letter should tell all. Thanks, Big Larry:confused::confused::confused:
 

Latest posts

Back
Top