Straw Purchase

[Squarebutt]

In reference to the earlier post about sports banquets, I'm on the local Friends of NRA committee, and we raffle off a couple of dozen guns at our annual banquet. We never take possession of them or transfer them to us. They are shipped to our friendly local FFL, then brought to the event for display. Afterwards they go back in the boxes, back to the FFL, and the winners have 30 days to show up there and fill out the paperwork. Works out best for all, and the dealer often sells ammo and accessories to go with the prize.

 

[jlrhiner]

I bought my 8 year old grandson a 10/22 Christmas. I bought it, I paid for it, and I gave it to him. It's his gun now. Where's the crime?

 

[2ndshift]

When I buy a gun I don't disclose anything other than here is my drivers license and CCW permit. They don't need to know anything else.

 

[Road Rat]

A lot of this reminds me of Nazi Germany in the 1930's where they had children ratting out the parents because, "Daddy said something bad about the dictator."

This entire "Your Papers Please" gets worse every year in what is supposed to be a free country (granted, it hasn't been really free for many decades).......

When the time comes that I cannot buy a rifle or shotgun for a relative it will have gone too far!!

 

[deadin]

When the time comes that I cannot buy a rifle or shotgun for a relative it will have gone too far!!

Where do you draw the line on "relative"?

(I just got the results back on my DNA test via Ancestry and, my word, I've got a lot of relatives!)

 

[bhayles]

While it is unlawful to purchase a firearm for another person (straw purchase), it is equally unlawful for any person to knowingly deliver a firearm to one person for transfer to another person.

Unless, of course, its the ATF/DEA or whatever acronym fits wanting to run guns to Mexican drug lords as in Fast and Furious...then its perfectly OK.

 

[dbltapster]

I think the govt' argument is moot. The BATF does not require paperwork on firearm ownership transfers amongst direct family members. So, does it really matter if he intended to give the gun to his Dad or keep it for himself? -- Please, also keep in mind that in 2013 alone there were THOUSANDS of federal false statement violations on BATF firearms transfer record, but less than 10 were actually prosecuted. If they enforced the spirit of the law instead of making political points, we might actually get the gun-runners and thugs off the street and leave law-abiding people alone!

 

[wittmeba]

When I view this post and assess by wiki's definition it seems to me what makes it a straw-man purchase isn't about the gun but he used the uncle's money. Had he used his own money and given the weapon (legal according to law - family member) all would have been OK.

Straw purchase - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I also think that the officer was misusing his right to buy as LE and passing that savings onto another that doesn't deserve it.

MILLER: Supreme Court to decide if buying a gun for a lawful person is a ?straw purchase? - Washington Times

High court to hear gun purchase case - Roanoke Times: Crime

The Validity of "Straw Man" Gun Sales Goes to Supreme Court

 

[wittmeba]

Where do you draw the line on "relative"?

(I just got the results back on my DNA test via Ancestry and, my word, I've got a lot of relatives!)

If you go back far enough we are all bothers and sisters.

 

[b_san]

The ATF's opinion is that the argument is not moot because the uncle gave the nephew the money to buy it for him (the uncle). I agree that the application of the law is ridiculous in this case but by definition it is a straw purchase. You can buy a firearm for a gift but you can't take someone else's money and buy the firearm for them, that's directly from the examples page of the 4473.

Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party.

ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer “NO” to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones.

However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer “YES” to question 11.a.

It'll be interesting to see how the SCOTUS rules on this one.

 

[bhayles]

The ATF's opinion is that the argument is not moot because the uncle gave the nephew the money to buy it for him (the uncle). I agree that the application of the law is ridiculous in this case but by definition it is a straw purchase. You can buy a firearm for a gift but you can't take someone else's money and buy the firearm for them, that's directly from the examples page of the 4473.

OK...so what happens when a spouse buys a gun for his/her other half? Let's say a wife has a checking account and the husband has one too, but the wife is a signer on his account. Theyu go together to a gun store, he decides which one is best, and she purchases it as his birthday present, using his account as her payday is a couple of days off and hubby's account has the excess, descretionary funds in it?

Good example of how stupid gun laws are.

EDIT: Yes, the hubby CAN legally buy a gun.

 

[Old TexMex]

Can you buy a gun with a welfare check? That's someone else's money....

 

[Buford57]

Well, if you buy a gun for your kids then hit "yes" on that form, they do a NICS and everything is fine. If you give the gun later to your kids is a personal transaction and the last time I checked those were still legal. But it's your name on the form and NICS.

Now if two buddies come in I would have an issue with one picking it out and the other one doing NICS.

That's the same problem my wife and I encountered, although we both had state FOID cards. The dealer was concerned I was making recommendations to her, although we were both not only able to pass NICS but were carrying the state issued cards that verify we are not prohibited persons.

Of course that dealer was later prosecuted for selling guns off the books over the Internet, but I'm sure he was sincere when he hassled us.

 

[KnotRight]

I have a FFL for a number of years and have call the ATF about this a few years ago. They said that there is not a problem if it is a "Gift" (we were talking about a family member) and the giftee can legally own one or purchase it themselves.

Per ATF, a "Straw Purchase" is when someone gives you the money to go buy a gun for them because they legally can not buy it.

If you think about it, during Christmas, my guess about 1/2 the guns that are sold at Bass Pro or any other big box store are being bought as gifts for a family member.

If I ever had a question about ANY transaction I would always call the local AFT office for advice.

 

[opamailman]

From my local FFL

Spoke to my LGS FFL about this situation. My Son-in-law likes rifles but does not make much money. Every once in a while as a gift, I accompany him to the LGS. The FFL told me that it does not matter who pays for the gun as long as the actual possessor does the paperwork. That works for me since I am willing to pay for his rifle and it does belong to him. Also, I am quite well known at the LGS and have helped them in arguments with customers who wanted them to overlook the regulations.

 

[JJEH]

...as long as the actual possessor does the paperwork...

There ya go, that's the answer.

 

[Mcwsky09]

Buying one as a gift out here is difficult unless you want to go through the transfer and 10 day waiting period TWICE.

My guy wanted to get me a 22 for Christmas one year so we went to buy it. We were both there as we figured I'd fill out the info since it would be mine and then he'd pay for it. No good. I had to pay for my own present and then he reimbursed me. Only way he could pay for it was to fill out the paper work and pay the fees himself and then after 10 days we pick it up and then I fill out the paperwork, pay the fees AGAIN and wait another 10 days. Both of us were legal to buy/own as well.

And how is having you pay for it with "your own" money at the point of sale and him reimbursing you later substantially different than him giving you the money in advance and having you pay for it with "your own" money that he just handed to you? The end result is exactly the same and no way for the FFL to distinguish between one and the other unless you tell them. And in neither case are we talking about a person ending up with possession of a firearm that would have been prevented or prohibited by any law on the books. The only thing it does is complicate and confuse things and make it difficult for a gift to be surprise.