TwoGunsStanding
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"some folks" and "may have" are the key words. Nothing personal. Greg
Strong side vs. Cross draw
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Big Foot is the only one here who has chosen to blanket disagree with most everyone else here by stating that Cross Draw is the ONLY Right way.
I seem to have read where most if not all of us who have been "apposed' to the Cross Draw Carry have ALL agreed that it does have it's "Place" in the World of Concealed Carry but simply not as an ALL the time method.
Big Foot has made in onto my Ignore List and for VERY, VERY GOOD reason - because he "Qualifies" 100%!!!
I seem to have read where most if not all of us who have been "apposed' to the Cross Draw Carry have ALL agreed that it does have it's "Place" in the World of Concealed Carry but simply not as an ALL the time method.
Big Foot has made in onto my Ignore List and for VERY, VERY GOOD reason - because he "Qualifies" 100%!!!
flop-shank
US Veteran
I would even go so far as to say that if a person's lifestyle dictates that they use crossdraw most of the time, and it truly is their best option, they might be best off to always use that method. I would rather have my guns in the same places always if I'm able to.
G-ManBart, now see what you've done. I'm on someones Ignore list for offering a dissenting point of view.
Anyway, I do recall saying somewhere that CD wasn't for everyone...I imagine that holster makers who make the 3-slot pancake can stop now since you suggest it's only for driving or surveillance work. What I didn't say was that on "many occasions" you can have your pistol in hand hidden under your garment while this is impossible under SS. You seem to be preoccupied with "speed" with the draw-presentation phase. Simply the wrong approach. Anyway, going with that for a second; you would lose against someone like myself.
Dismissing Ray Chapman as antiquated has me scratching my head. Its obvious you never met him or attended his Academy. I don't know who your "experts" are that would find this somewhat amusing, but I'm sure they are expert at something.
One last comment (it seems we both must have the last word), in the real-world when "hell breaks loose" and you are not standing still, but moving laterally, or perhaps backwards seeking cover; I contend that SS is far more awkward in the draw-phase. I've been through a "Hogan's Alley", have you?
Appreciate all the replies from you & others, even a few that I offended with my point of view.
Anyway, I do recall saying somewhere that CD wasn't for everyone...I imagine that holster makers who make the 3-slot pancake can stop now since you suggest it's only for driving or surveillance work. What I didn't say was that on "many occasions" you can have your pistol in hand hidden under your garment while this is impossible under SS. You seem to be preoccupied with "speed" with the draw-presentation phase. Simply the wrong approach. Anyway, going with that for a second; you would lose against someone like myself.
Dismissing Ray Chapman as antiquated has me scratching my head. Its obvious you never met him or attended his Academy. I don't know who your "experts" are that would find this somewhat amusing, but I'm sure they are expert at something.
One last comment (it seems we both must have the last word), in the real-world when "hell breaks loose" and you are not standing still, but moving laterally, or perhaps backwards seeking cover; I contend that SS is far more awkward in the draw-phase. I've been through a "Hogan's Alley", have you?
Appreciate all the replies from you & others, even a few that I offended with my point of view.
BarbC
Member
Such as a female's?
Generally, IWB SS just forward of the hip works the best for me because the gun butt sits lower and at a more comfortable and natural angle.
flop-shank
US Veteran
What kind of holster is that, Barb? Something like that might be of use to my wife someday.
BarbC
Member
A DeSantis SkyCop. Very comfortable and holds a small revolver just perfectly.
From what I see on the websites, though, the large autos are held differently than the small revolvers.
From what I see on the websites, though, the large autos are held differently than the small revolvers.
flop-shank
US Veteran
Thank you. I don't see my wife ever carrying anything bigger than a J frame. A 3" model 60 is to her what a 4" 686 is to someone my size.
I'm going to say something else about the draw back of cross draw for those who have babies or small children.if you cross draw which hip do carry the baby/child.
Do you carry baby strong hand and gun cross draw or
carry baby on the cross draw hip and keep your strong hand open,if you do this how well will you be able to draw from under the child.When i have to carry baby and gun i carry strong hand and strong side.
Do you carry baby strong hand and gun cross draw or
carry baby on the cross draw hip and keep your strong hand open,if you do this how well will you be able to draw from under the child.When i have to carry baby and gun i carry strong hand and strong side.
This way for me. Much of the child's weight is far above your pistol when I carry a baby. Men tend to place the child higher up than say some women that might use the hip to counter the weight. A simple slide across the abdomen with coat/baby's foot above makes for a nice move. Hopefully, this scenario w/baby never plays out....I make study of body & balance. Using your example, regardless of what side the child is on; cocking your elbow/shoulder SS places an altered equilibrium and will bring the child up-front further in the line-of-fire.
TwoGunsStanding
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Back pack the kid......
TwoGunsStanding
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Maybe they make them in kevlar...
G-ManBart
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Originally posted by Big Foot:
G-ManBart, now see what you've done. I'm on someones Ignore list for offering a dissenting point of view.
Anyway, I do recall saying somewhere that CD wasn't for everyone...I imagine that holster makers who make the 3-slot pancake can stop now since you suggest it's only for driving or surveillance work. What I didn't say was that on "many occasions" you can have your pistol in hand hidden under your garment while this is impossible under SS. You seem to be preoccupied with "speed" with the draw-presentation phase. Simply the wrong approach. Anyway, going with that for a second; you would lose against someone like myself.
Dismissing Ray Chapman as antiquated has me scratching my head. Its obvious you never met him or attended his Academy. I don't know who your "experts" are that would find this somewhat amusing, but I'm sure they are expert at something.
One last comment (it seems we both must have the last word), in the real-world when "hell breaks loose" and you are not standing still, but moving laterally, or perhaps backwards seeking cover; I contend that SS is far more awkward in the draw-phase. I've been through a "Hogan's Alley", have you?
Appreciate all the replies from you & others, even a few that I offended with my point of view.
You're kidding right? The three slot pancake was introduced to give folks the option to carry butt forward or not....not as a substitute for a proper cross draw holster.
I really should say "you're kidding right" to about five things here...not just one.
I've trained in THE Hogan's Alley many times. Have you? It's located in Quantico and not the Marine portion. I'm actually instructing across the street for the next few weeks. I've also trained in quite a few shoot houses that a lot of folks improperly call Hogan's Alleys....not really the same thing, but I know what you were referring to.
I've done a LOT of simunitions training....have you? You know, where you actually have a gunfight, but nobody gets seriously hurt. I've based a lot of what I train for on those sessions.
Speed during the presentation is one of the few variables you can control. You can't control what the bad guy is going to do, but you can practice to get the gun out as quickly as possible so that you can engage the bad guy as soon as possible. If you can learn to do it fast, precisely, and safely, you can do it slower if and when that's the proper choice.
I spend the vast majority of my practice doing moving draws....NOT static draws as you suggest. I only did static draws for the video because that's what we were discussing....an apples-to-apples comparison. I'm more than comfortable doing a moving draw from concealment....granted, the times change slightly, but it's all relative. I practice drawing moving laterally, backwards, backwards and laterally together, turning draws, draws moving in one direction and shooting in the other, all angles forwards (since sometimes cover will be in front of you). You're making a lot of assumptions about what I do or don't practice or know about. In fact, I sort of doubt quite a bit of what you've said, but I'm not calling you out on it. I pretty boldly stated what I could do with a gun in my hand....THEN went and posted a video of it a couple days later. I guess I've been more than willing to back up my claims with some kind of proof. Why not get out a video camera and show us some video of you drawing from your hollywood rig...ooops....sorry...cross draw rig?
And yes, a lot of Ray Chapman's stuff is old-school and not the best way to do things based upon what we know now. He had some great ideas that are still being used, but others have fallen by the wayside as newer, better ideas have come along. That's not an insult to him....he was one of the very best when he came along and his ideas were often revolutionary, but we've learned a lot in the last few decades based upon real numbers from real gunfights and now real video of real gunfights.
An example of how this sort of stuff has evolved....in every police in-car video that I've seen showing a cop who gets surprised and a gunfight occurs, the cop drops down in a deep knee bend, isoscelese style foot position, sticks the support hand upwards and outwards and shoots one handed with the gun driven straight out from the shoulder. Pretty much nobody has taught that position since Rex Applegate did back during his OSS days. Even guys trained exlusively in the old-fashioned "Weaver" position did this....which is now starting to change training because it's been proven and documented...not just theorized by internet experts who think they know something about something.
Oh, and the "experts" I was talking about pretty much set the standard for the entire law enforcement community. I spent five hours with one of them on Thurs learning about some extremely new stuff that nobody else has ever done and have to say that based off his 30 years of experience and the new technology I was able to learn more about trigger press, sight alignment and sight picture than I have in the last five years. This same gentleman has put Todd Jarrett, Rob Leatham and I think Jerry Barnhardt on "the box" and they were all pretty impressed with what they saw because it showed them something, in graphic form, that they understood but could not explain or document. I'll have to take their word over yours....sorry, they're professionals who've devoted their lives to the craft of studying, teaching and learning about real-world employment of guns and aren't internet experts.
Anyone that claims one carry is far superior than another has a closed-mind. It’s like saying the Weaver stance is better than an Isosceles, or a combination of both. Method of carry should be dictated by one’s training, physical attributes and situation. BTW, Ray Chapman in his day probably forgot more than you know presently.
First of all, the reference to a 3-slot pancake was to show that mfgr’s design holsters with variable uses. In case you don’t know: the top 2-slots will lower the butt for a CD. Actually, I use various Yaqui belt-slides made especially with the backward cant for CD. Your response indicates you really don’t know much about this carry position and the need for a cant conducive for a good presentation/draw. Your hook-method,talk about Hollywood; doesn’t work on a heavy outer garment. Again, another variable to concern yourself when as you say “speed is so essential.”
You are so hung-up on speed saying that this is one variable under your control. WRONG! Under stress, too quick might mean a fumble. The constant variable is what’s between “your ears” and how one can handle a given situation, and not be preoccupied with an ambush scenario. Have you heard of Condition Orange? Challenging me for a YouTube video is really grasping. After viewing your tape on another post, I can teach anyone w/normal reflexes in an afternoon to draw-hit a std K-Zone at 7 yds in times equivalent to yours using only 1-hand. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing when
“hell breaks loose”.
The Hogan's Alley I referred to what was first used by LA Cty law enforcement many decades ago, probably still in use today; not the F.B.I. version you spoke of.
People that have credentials/background don’t have to prove or show how good they are; they don’t need to. I know my limitations and have no Walter Mitty delusions. You might impress some on this forum with your verbiage since it sounds good; but not the thousands that carry CD. Again, CD fits my life-style and situation well, but for others; perhaps not…
First of all, the reference to a 3-slot pancake was to show that mfgr’s design holsters with variable uses. In case you don’t know: the top 2-slots will lower the butt for a CD. Actually, I use various Yaqui belt-slides made especially with the backward cant for CD. Your response indicates you really don’t know much about this carry position and the need for a cant conducive for a good presentation/draw. Your hook-method,talk about Hollywood; doesn’t work on a heavy outer garment. Again, another variable to concern yourself when as you say “speed is so essential.”
You are so hung-up on speed saying that this is one variable under your control. WRONG! Under stress, too quick might mean a fumble. The constant variable is what’s between “your ears” and how one can handle a given situation, and not be preoccupied with an ambush scenario. Have you heard of Condition Orange? Challenging me for a YouTube video is really grasping. After viewing your tape on another post, I can teach anyone w/normal reflexes in an afternoon to draw-hit a std K-Zone at 7 yds in times equivalent to yours using only 1-hand. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing when
“hell breaks loose”.
The Hogan's Alley I referred to what was first used by LA Cty law enforcement many decades ago, probably still in use today; not the F.B.I. version you spoke of.
People that have credentials/background don’t have to prove or show how good they are; they don’t need to. I know my limitations and have no Walter Mitty delusions. You might impress some on this forum with your verbiage since it sounds good; but not the thousands that carry CD. Again, CD fits my life-style and situation well, but for others; perhaps not…
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Well; "Big Foot in his Mouth" has again stated shown he can't even begin to answer questions when they are specifically posed to Him. But then his "Avatar" does remind me a whole lot of "Joe Friday" and it sounds like he's from "LA Cty" and of course, they wrote the book. Of course, most of what they wrote has been proven to be wrong over the Years but once written, well, some old Dogs can never remember just which leg to lift!!!
Everybody but "Big Foot in his Mouth" has agreed that 'Cross Draw' does have it's 'place' but not in day after day carry; unless you spend your day riding around in a car or vehicle!!!
Everybody but "Big Foot in his Mouth" has agreed that 'Cross Draw' does have it's 'place' but not in day after day carry; unless you spend your day riding around in a car or vehicle!!!
TwoGunsStanding
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I won't tolerate interance! Wait. Does that mean I have to put everyone who has an "ignore list" on my ignore list?
It seems that most of the folks engaged in this debate are law enforcement officers, who, I expect, have a different mindset than the average civilian. By this I mean that LEOs may unintentionally project a more suspicious or even confrontational attitude than civilians. This alone can alert BGs to a mode of either fight or flight, bringing conventional CQC tactics more quickly to the forefront.
While always trying to remain in condition yellow, I also usually try to project, if not a condition white, at least a friendlier, more laid-back demeanor than one that might appear competitive, assertive or macho. I'm an older gent, so this bearing fits my natural look. I can also appear suspicious and curmudgeonly if appropiate and without trying too hard.
The point I'm leading to is that while I wouldn't dream of advocating crossdraw as the only way to go, I'm more comfortable personally with this method for a couple of reasons: my stiffening joints make the SS draw more difficult and awkward than someone with a more fluid motion in their limbs; I rely more on cunning and deception than on quick-draw reflexes in a tight spot. Thus, the belly-scratching technique comes off as less threatening than dropping my SS hand to the side, and the gun is out before my adversary can appreciate that he has underestimated the old coot he planned on assaulting. At the same time, the BUG in my front pants pocket (SS, incidentally) is covered with a white handkerchief, which can be withdrawn, still wrapped around the piece, during a coughing spell that fits right in with the coot's appearance and demeanor and even often repels close scrutiny for fear that something nasty might be seen entering the hanky. That reflexive flick of an aversion can prove fatal to the miscreant.
While always trying to remain in condition yellow, I also usually try to project, if not a condition white, at least a friendlier, more laid-back demeanor than one that might appear competitive, assertive or macho. I'm an older gent, so this bearing fits my natural look. I can also appear suspicious and curmudgeonly if appropiate and without trying too hard.
The point I'm leading to is that while I wouldn't dream of advocating crossdraw as the only way to go, I'm more comfortable personally with this method for a couple of reasons: my stiffening joints make the SS draw more difficult and awkward than someone with a more fluid motion in their limbs; I rely more on cunning and deception than on quick-draw reflexes in a tight spot. Thus, the belly-scratching technique comes off as less threatening than dropping my SS hand to the side, and the gun is out before my adversary can appreciate that he has underestimated the old coot he planned on assaulting. At the same time, the BUG in my front pants pocket (SS, incidentally) is covered with a white handkerchief, which can be withdrawn, still wrapped around the piece, during a coughing spell that fits right in with the coot's appearance and demeanor and even often repels close scrutiny for fear that something nasty might be seen entering the hanky. That reflexive flick of an aversion can prove fatal to the miscreant.
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