Strong side vs. Cross draw

[TwoGunsStanding]

ClarkKent, nice post. Very valid ideas for a pro-crossdraw carry.

 

[SixWillDo]

Many years ago I drove Armored Car for a living, and in that situation I felt more comfortable carrying cross draw. When making pickups and deliveries, especially large quantities of coin, or when servicing ATMs I realized that more often than not my back was to any potential avenues of approach or possible threats and in all cases, my hands were occupied. It seemed that an evil-doer would have more difficulty gaining control from the side or rear than if I carried it SS.

 

[tocohillsguy]

Wow. What a thread. My only observation is that experimenting with holster set ups can be expensive.

 

[oddjob]

30 yr LEO here...plainclothes & undercover for the past 20 yrs. I carry strong side (SS) 90% of the time. The rest of the time its in a cross draw (CD) or shoulder rig (like surveillances or when I'm U/C). When I'm off duty I tend to like the shoulder rig in the winter. Its due to the sweat clothes outfits I wear. The shoulder rig under a sweatshirt is what I like with "elastic band" pants. In the summer I wear shorts/t-shirts and like both styles.
Bottom line is wear the style that suits your needs. And practice.

 

[RichardC]

Originally posted by Captain38:
For those who spend a lot of time behind the wheel, I can recommend Ken Null's "Viper" holster for J-frame Smiths.

"Vampire"?

 

[Andy Taylor]

Originally posted by ClarkKent:
It seems that most of the folks engaged in this debate are law enforcement officers, who, I expect, have a different mindset than the average civilian. By this I mean that LEOs may unintentionally project a more suspicious or even confrontational attitude than civilians. This alone can alert BGs to a mode of either fight or flight, bringing conventional CQC tactics more quickly to the forefront.

While always trying to remain in condition yellow, I also usually try to project, if not a condition white, at least a friendlier, more laid-back demeanor than one that might appear competitive, assertive or macho. I'm an older gent, so this bearing fits my natural look. I can also appear suspicious and curmudgeonly if appropiate and without trying too hard.

The point I'm leading to is that while I wouldn't dream of advocating crossdraw as the only way to go, I'm more comfortable personally with this method for a couple of reasons: my stiffening joints make the SS draw more difficult and awkward than someone with a more fluid motion in their limbs; I rely more on cunning and deception than on quick-draw reflexes in a tight spot. Thus, the belly-scratching technique comes off as less threatening than dropping my SS hand to the side, and the gun is out before my adversary can appreciate that he has underestimated the old coot he planned on assaulting. At the same time, the BUG in my front pants pocket (SS, incidentally) is covered with a white handkerchief, which can be withdrawn, still wrapped around the piece, during a coughing spell that fits right in with the coot's appearance and demeanor and even often repels close scrutiny for fear that something nasty might be seen entering the hanky. That reflexive flick of an aversion can prove fatal to the miscreant.

Great post!

I love the handkerchief idea. I may just use that one day.

 

[Drail]

Barb, that's very nice. You have excellent taste in guns and leather.

 

[G-ManBart]

Originally posted by Big Foot:
Anyone that claims one carry is far superior than another has a closed-mind. It’s like saying the Weaver stance is better than an Isosceles, or a combination of both. Method of carry should be dictated by one’s training, physical attributes and situation. BTW, Ray Chapman in his day probably forgot more than you know presently.
First of all, the reference to a 3-slot pancake was to show that mfgr’s design holsters with variable uses. In case you don’t know: the top 2-slots will lower the butt for a CD. Actually, I use various Yaqui belt-slides made especially with the backward cant for CD. Your response indicates you really don’t know much about this carry position and the need for a cant conducive for a good presentation/draw. Your hook-method,talk about Hollywood; doesn’t work on a heavy outer garment. Again, another variable to concern yourself when as you say “speed is so essential.”
You are so hung-up on speed saying that this is one variable under your control. WRONG! Under stress, too quick might mean a fumble. The constant variable is what’s between “your ears” and how one can handle a given situation, and not be preoccupied with an ambush scenario. Have you heard of Condition Orange? Challenging me for a YouTube video is really grasping. After viewing your tape on another post, I can teach anyone w/normal reflexes in an afternoon to draw-hit a std K-Zone at 7 yds in times equivalent to yours using only 1-hand. What does that prove? Absolutely nothing when
“hell breaks loose”.
The Hogan's Alley I referred to what was first used by LA Cty law enforcement many decades ago, probably still in use today; not the F.B.I. version you spoke of.
People that have credentials/background don’t have to prove or show how good they are; they don’t need to. I know my limitations and have no Walter Mitty delusions. You might impress some on this forum with your verbiage since it sounds good; but not the thousands that carry CD. Again, CD fits my life-style and situation well, but for others; perhaps not…

Again, I should really just start off by saying "you've got to be kidding?" to most of this.

You simply refuse to address the basic, fundamental problems with cross draw and flit around suggesting one different thing after another to avoid the truth that you either don't want to or can't bear to accept.

The three slot pancake has always primarily been a strong side holster giving the option of two cant angles. Sure some are marketed as being dual-use for cross draw as well, but that's not their primary design intent. In fact, my primary duty holster is a Kramer vertical belt scabbard. Kramer makes their dedicated cross draw holster with the same basic unit, but a different belt loop angle...so I'm aware of the different cant required. Heck, I've even said I use a Galco SOB as a cross draw on occasion and if you look at it, it puts the gun at the proper cant for cross draw...butt forward, which really doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination. And yes, I have practiced from this position (seated since that's how I use it).

I have never, ever said that any one method of carry was categorically "better" than any other. What I have said, ad naseum, is that for the overwhelming majority of people, in most circumstances, some form of strong side is the best compromise, since everything is a compromise. In other words, SS carry has the least number of significant problems under the most common situations.

The hook method I've described worked perfectly well for me wearing a suit and a full-length cashmere overcoat...quite a heavy combination. It does require that you practice it a little bit...like anything else.

Hey, if you're not willing to step up to the plate, put your money where you mouth is and post some videos of yourself doing a few cross draw drills all I can say is that it makes it's own statement. Tell you what, come out to the city range in AQ and I'll bring the camcorder and even post them for you

Heck, come out for a match and we can do the video afterwards...I'll even pay your range and match fees! (I offer this to anyone coming out to their first match...honest, so if someone else reads this, send me a note and I'll gladly offer the same to you). First and third Sat of the month on AQ and fourth Sat in Edgewood....other cities have different dates as well.

The ONLY point in my other video was a relative difference in time between two methods. It was never intended to illustrate anything other than that. Further, I wasn't even trying to come close to my personal "best" times for that sort of drill (loaded start). I can get those down into the .80 range without much effort at all...not bragging as others are faster...just a statement of fact that I'm not afraid to back up with proof. I also can get six shots in the A zone from a loaded start in around 1.8s...but that's just a point of reference. You may be able to take someone and get them to do one shot in one second flat in a day (I doubt it, but I'll take your word for it), but they're not going to get six center hits in 2s or two centered hits in 1.0-1.2 that way...not that it has anything to do with cross draw carry. If you actually watched those videos, you'd have noticed that I ended talking about stress, pressure and what it does to performance and what you should be worrying about rather than a distraction of dealing with the gun...all pretty much based on the real world and what happens in gunfights.

The funny thing, to me at least, is you were the one starting the "have you done this stuff?"...not me. Yes, I've trained in quite a few shoot houses/Hogan's alleys and I enjoy that sort of training quite a bit.

I also spend a lot of time competing and if you don't think that's stress or pressure, you're wrong. I've been more nervous at a match than I've ever been the few times I've had to draw my weapon on a bad guy....those were almost always out of the blue with little to no warning. Curiously, some of the best Operators in the business hire guys like Rob Leatham, Todd Jarret and Jerry Barnhardt to help them learn how to make faster, more accurate hits on target...has to be something to that or it wouldn't still be going on year after year.

Speed isn't everything, not by a long shot, but it IS a tactic and a darned good one to have in your bag of tricks when it's required. I recall one incident years ago when a partner and I were responding to a fight call. Went up a stairway, turned a corner and a drunk with a broken bottle rushed us. He stopped when he saw the guns pointed at him...luckily for all involved. Afterwards my partner said "I saw him first and started to draw before you did, but out the corner of my eye I saw you had your gun on him before I did. How did you do that?". My answer "I've just practiced a lot".

Point fingers and suggest that I don't have "credentials/background" all you want, but you're the one not willing to support your claims or address the very real problems that come with cross draw. Some can be worked around, others can't.

Specifically, you've never once commented about what is likely the biggest problem with cross draw. There simply is no way to draw the gun into a retention position and still be able to fire if necessary. Cross draw requires that the gun come out, across your body somewhat and then rotate/twist towards the bad guy where it's then available for a weapon takeaway. Strong side you can simply draw the weapon up until it clears the holster, pivot the gun towards the target and lock your forearm in at your side just above the holster in a very strong retention position. It's fast, not vulnerable to takeaway and easy to practice/learn.

Second huge problem is that if you do wind up in a struggle while attempting to draw, any decent sized opponent can prevent you from being able to draw the gun...they can push your arm harder than you can pull the gun out. Now you're locked up with the bad guy, you're in a weak position and he's in a strong position and you're probably going to need both hands for retention so your options are pretty limited....you're also off balance with your strong arm across your body...easier to push back, knock down etc.

Those are just two...there are others that I've mentioned, but those two are enough to seriously compromise cross draw as a primary carry method for most folks. I have yet to see you, or anyone else, come up with similar weaknesses for strong side...if so, I'd love to hear them.

Hey, want some historical fun info on your hero Chapman that relates to cross draw? Do you know how and why he first went to cross draw? Short answer was that he was what we now call a "Gamer". In the very early days of IPSC they had a lot of starts where you had your arms crossed at roughly belly button height. The gamers realized that cross draw would put their hand closer to the gun and give them a faster draw....oh, Heavens no! Chapman was a gamer looking for the fastest draw for a GAME???? If you doubt it, ask Mas and see what he says.

For the umpteenth time....cross draw has a place. It's limited in scope and has huge drawbacks, but for those few situations, can be quite useful. I wouldn't have admitted to using cross draw from the outset if that wasn't the case...then again, people not willing to accept the truth often seem to gloss right over things like that.

 

[ClarkKent]

Michael Bane's Shooting Gallery show on the Outdoor channel featured two Gunsite instructors on one of his episodes last year. One of them, Il Ling New, carried CD, and demonstrated how she pivots slightly as she draws to protect against someone grabbing the gun or her arm. Her needle-sharp elbow looked to be the perfect counterweapon for discouraging such a move. The guy trying to compromise her draw was either Bane or Ed Head, operations mgr. at Gunsite. Looked pretty smooth and effective to me.