SW 10mm

Sure, it can be done, but the home made mags will not be as reliable as a true made from scratch mag. The concept is good, why not do it right?

Anyone who made the barrel could also have the mags made to the proper dimensions. It would be a small, but profitable undertaking.
 
Mag's

The lack of mag's is one of the big factor's that doomed the Bren Ten.....we had pistols, but no mag's.....the outfit that was contracted to make the mag's had all kinds of "issues"....as a result you saw Bren's for sale, but no mag's.....I had three mag's with mine when I sold it, and that was unheard of.
Magazines are the "life blood" of any mag fed platform, so they better be good quality, reliable and available.

Rastoff said:
Sure, it can be done, but the home made mags will not be as reliable as a true made from scratch mag. The concept is good, why not do it right?

Anyone who made the barrel could also have the mags made to the proper dimensions. It would be a small, but profitable undertaking.
Click to expand...
 
Magazine tuning is nothing more than bending the feed lips to proper constriction and polishing the insides. I don't think there will be any issues with the follower and the slight constriction from .45 to 10mm. The fact that we're not trying for super capacity with aftermarket springs and followers means we should get decent life out of them.

I don't think it will be all that profitable for someone to make dedicated magazines. There are folks that are willing to jump on the bandwagon if/when somebody else makes one. The true tinkerers aren't as many. Realistically we may not even need to tweak the mags to make them work. Even better for those that hop back and forth between .45 and 10mm.
 
The lack of mag's is one of the big factor's that doomed the Bren Ten.....we had pistols, but no mag's.....the outfit that was contracted to make the mag's had all kinds of "issues"....as a result you saw Bren's for sale, but no mag's.....I had three mag's with mine when I sold it, and that was unheard of.
Magazines are the "life blood" of any mag fed platform, so they better be good quality, reliable and available.
Click to expand...

This statement, like everything else associated with the Bren Ten, is Gunzine-internet enhanced myth. The magazines referred to were actually built by MEC-GAR of Italy. Yes, that MEC-GAR. When Dornaus & Dixon folded, they had over a thousand of the original MEC-GAR dual caliber magazines in inventory plus components to build a couple of thousand of the 2nd generation 10mm caliber specific magazines. The reason the company failed way due to the fact it was under capitalized, plain and simple.

The FBI's version of the S&W 10mm pistol failed because the gun was built the way the FBI wanted it even though Smith & Wesson told them there would be problems with some of the changes they requested. This could account for all the issues loc n load saw as opposed to the experiences of civilian shooters and non FBI LEO shooters. Anyway, that is the way the situation with the FBI was explained to me and I tend to believe it.

Bruce
 
Bruce M

In regards to the Bren.....they may have had the mags and components, but they certainly were not getting them out to the folk's who had bought their pistols, those who owned them ( I did) and wanted mag's were hard pressed to acquire them & if you were able to contact the mfgr of the Bren - they blamed the magazine vendor for mag's not being available - I am not parroting something I read on the internet - this was my personal experience living in S.Cal at that time, and you are most correct about other factors contributing to the demise of the Bren..they had a product, but no viable business model.....but customer support is always a big factor also.... you are also correct that the FBI played a role in the difficulties experienced by Smith in trying to meet the desired design parameters for a 10mm pistol for that agency.
Back when the Bren was on the scene we did not have the wonders of communication that we have now.....we had "hard line" telephones, magazines, catalogs and mail.....so communicating with companies that did not answer their phones, or return calls or respond to mail enquiries was quite frustrating. It would have really been wonderful to have been able to "google" for Bren Ten mag's or have a company web site to order from, or to voice our opinions on a forum such as this one, but we would have had to have had computers and the internet to do so....which we didn't....we had to rely on the companies to deliver what they promised & advertised and in the case of Dornaus & Dixon, they didn't deliver.
 
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I would be hesitant to use a cobbled up magazine for serious purposes. They are too critical to functioning for me to want to take the risk. Given the gluteal discomfort and expense factors, if I wanted a 10mm pistol, the G20 still seems to be a winner. As a bonus, with a drop in barrel, you can use it for .40S&W (and unlike the 22/23, it should work with a light) or .357Sig.

A local officer has one and swears by it, for those and other reasons.
 
forrestinmathews said:
Magazine tuning is nothing more than bending the feed lips to proper constriction and polishing the insides.
Click to expand...
The problem is, to make a reliable bend, the metal must be heated. If not done correctly, this could result in unreliable mags.

This leads to two questions:
1. How much would it cost to produce the mags?
2. What are people willing to spend for these mags?

Obviously, if people are only willing to spend $20/mag and it costs $19/mag to make them, then it's not worth doing. But, if folks are willing to spend $40/mag and it costs $20/mag to produce, then there's profit to be had. Alas, I think it will cost more than $20/mag to make.

forrestinmathews said:
Realistically we may not even need to tweak the mags to make them work. Even better for those that hop back and forth between .45 and 10mm.
Click to expand...
This is a good thought. So, I just loaded some .40 snap caps in one of my .45 mags. The rounds were held in place by the feed lips. I don't know how reliable they would be under use, but it is a possibility.
 
In view of the fact that I spent 6-7 years of my life doing research for the book "Bren Ten-The Heir Apparent", have spoken to Tom Dornaus numerous times; I actually have a pretty good grasp of what was going on inside the factory, the relationship between Dornaus & Dixon, MEC-GAR and the importer D&D was forced to use as a go between plus an overview of the bankruptcy and class action proceedings. Above and beyond that, the time line relative to the gun's actual manufacture is actually quite short so what was left in inventory is actually quite relevant. Many Bren Tens which originally shipped without magazines never had their magazine wells broached to final dimensions. When the magazines finally arrived at the factory, D&D required that these guns be returned for said modification. By this time, rumors of D&D's possible bankruptcy were spreading so owners were obviously reluctant to return their guns. D&D was equally adamant about not shipping magazines to owners without performing the final machining because of product liability concerns and the predictable Mexican standoff ensued. The problem, in fact, did originate with MEC-GAR in Italy and was not a dodge by Dornaus and Dixon. As to Dornaus & Dixon's customer service in general and Harlene Merske in particular, their performance is a function of a failing company in general and there is no defense for it.

Sorry for hi-jacking this thread but I feel my grasp of this particular situation is a bit broader than that of a single retail customer although all he can do is base his opinions on his experiences. I would in all likelihood react in a similar manner. D&D made numerous mistakes, took a number of chances and never caught a single break during the entire exercise.

Bruce
 
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BruceM

I applaud your efforts, your research and efforts into documenting the story of the Bren and all of it's "birthing difficulties"....as you point out I am not a "subject matter expert", just a working cop & handgun enthusiast that spent his hard earned money for what I hoped would be a great pistol. Events as you mention proved otherwise.... I agree with you that it is a shame that D&D "flamed out" the way they did. Opportunity missed.
 
Rastoff said:
The problem is, to make a reliable bend, the metal must be heated. If not done correctly, this could result in unreliable mags.

This leads to two questions:
1. How much would it cost to produce the mags?
2. What are people willing to spend for these mags?

Obviously, if people are only willing to spend $20/mag and it costs $19/mag to make them, then it's not worth doing. But, if folks are willing to spend $40/mag and it costs $20/mag to produce, then there's profit to be had. Alas, I think it will cost more than $20/mag to make.

This is a good thought. So, I just loaded some .40 snap caps in one of my .45 mags. The rounds were held in place by the feed lips. I don't know how reliable they would be under use, but it is a possibility.
Click to expand...

The problem in producing mags is going to be the resounding posterior sensitivity due to mag scalpers. We'll have to see what the feed lip durability is over time.
 
There are not many good 10mm rounds around anymore. Since the FBI had it loaded down it is not a really effective round. The best I could find for my Glock 10 was Buffalo Bore 1350 fps 40 cal.
 
What is the real dimensional difference in the .45 and the .40 barrels? Realistically all they'd have to do is bore, rifle and chamber it for .40. That may be the gate way. People are so goofy about the 10mm. Oooh big bad casing. I think it's less pressure sensitive than the .40.

How far did you get with KKM? I'd think they'd do it if you could talk to someone besides the guy with all the "answers". Perhaps you'd get further with a short chamber .40 sort of how some manufacturers do with the .355 in 1911's. Would a Custom Fit barrel have enough meat to match up to the .45 slide? Are the lugs and hood of similar length? Perhaps you could get through the hoops to commission a .40 chambered barrel that required heavy fitting? It seems like somebody just needs to be talked to the right way.
 
You are welcome to try. The answer I received from Kevn at KKM was short: "Not at this time." The answer I got from Storm Lake was even shorter: "No" I guess it didn't even rate a period at the end of the one word paragraph.

The .45 slide is large enough. All that is necessary is to make a .40 sized chamber with .45 depth. Then bore the barrel to .40/10mm specs and you've got a 10mm barrel. I thought it would be easy for them since they already make .45 and .40 barrels. Apparently they don't see it my way.
 
That's completely bogus. You have to get to someone more customer service oriented. No or not at this time is not the proper answer. Quote me a price.

You missed the bus on what I was talking about. Dimensions of the barrels. I know the slide will work. The width of the hood and the length of the breech is what I'm interested in comparing between a .40 and a .45 M&P barrel. If they're close perhaps someone can be coerced into making a slightly larger .40 for "precise fitting." Try Jarvis also they made Jim Cirillo a bunch of different calibers for a glock 20 some years back 10, .40, 9x25, and .357 if I'm not mistaken. They might be able to adapt to the M&P. They're making P99 barrels so how hard can it be? Their website also suggests a more call and talk to us culture. It's pretty antiquated and the drop downs are simplistic. I'd contact them but I'm shipping out tomorrow for four months and may not see the answer.
 
No, I got it. The .40 is smaller than a .45, but if they can make a .45 all they'd need to do is mill the chamber and bore for 10mm. Further, since the bore is the same as the .40, the only area of difficulty is chamber length. I can't imagine it would be that difficult.

I agree that the answers were poor. I'm not sure I want to dance with them over this at this time.
 
Yeah I will try them in a few months or less if I have real time Internet available on the ship.
 
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