SW 10mm

[S&W357]

I know we all love our SW guns but why is everyone waiting for SW to make a M&P 10 mm when Colt makes a great 10mm gun?

 

[Captain Skippy]

If S&W did make a 10mm I'm sure it'd be far cheaper than the Colt. Last I checked the Colts were pretty hard to find anyway. Plus the M&P is such a great platform. I really believe if they had come out before Glock they (M&P) would be the predominant polymer handgun.

 

[forrestinmathews]

Colt blew it when they made the DE. I doesn't feature a fully supported chamber which doesn't allow the use of full house 10mm.

 

[handgunner356]

I had a Delta Elite 10mm back in the day that I used in USPSA for a short time. It was fun shooting it and then going back and picking up my brass, sights, plunger tube, etc........

 

[Doug M.]

I doubt that there is enough market for S&W to bother. The G20 still works well, and there are plenty of accessories for that platform since most of them are for the G21. In fact, it is probably the only Glock I would consider buying right now, but I have no use for the 10mm that justifies the money.

 

[Cuda]

I would concur with Doug M--there just isn't the market for a 10mm; they wouldn't recoup the costs to retool and make one.

There hasn't been a new-design 10mm pistol out for at least 10-15 years that I'm aware of--all of the recent ones have been copies of other already existing 10mm's (1911's, CZ clones( Witness), etc...).

I've gotten out of the 10mm game in the last year or so, but if you want a really good 10mm that is quite the sleeper, value-wise--look at the EAA Witness Elite Match. It's one heck of a gun for the money.

 

[Rastoff]

The reason they might make one is the same reason Glock makes one; because not everyone likes the 1911 design.

Would I buy an M&P in 10mm? Probably not. I'm too much of a fan of the .45ACP. I do have 9mm and .40S&W guns, but mostly shoot the .45s.

I owned a Delta Elite back in the early 90s. It sucked. It had at least one malfunction on every magazine. It ruined me for Colt firearms for a long time. I still wouldn't buy one today.

 

[Stu1205]

I would concur with Doug M--there just isn't the market for a 10mm; they wouldn't recoup the costs to retool and make one.

No need to re-tool. Just bring back the 1006.
Got one....love it.

Stu

 

[epj]

While they are no longer produced, S&W made some of the best, if not THE best 10mm pistols ever produced. I'm speaking of the 10XX series of gen3 Smiths. The 1006 is about the same size and weight as a full size 1911. Much tougher, IMHO. The one I have performs flawlessly and is quite accurate. There are shorter and lighter versions available. Plenty of them to be had on the used market. I, too, once had a Colt. Kept it about two weeks.

 

[BTHG]

No need to re-tool. Just bring back the 1006.
Got one....love it.

Stu

I agree. Hands down my favorite gun.

 

[Doug M.]

As with all things, mileage varies. I was issued a 1076. They were breakage prone pigs at best. It had slightly better ergonomics than the other 10XX variants for a left hander like me, due to the SIG style decocker, but they ate small parts like extractors at a staggering rate (600 rounds or less to failure), and were way oversized for the ballistics of the duty ammo. They were replaced with the 4566, which was also breakage prone (I saw failures requiring armorer attention at almost every in-service shoot). I bought an authorized option, which had one big flaw: it went through mag springs at a rate that boggled my mind. I had to replace them yearly. I know some agencies and individuals had great success with the 3rd generation/4 digit pistols, but I never saw anything that would make me want one.

 

[Edmo]

I see the 10mm round (and handguns chambered for it) with several smaller niche markets.

Yes, some will carry it for self defense. It gives you a mountain of energy in a lightweight package. For my needs I would pick another caliber for protection against two legged threats, but would feel well armed with something like a GLOCK 29 with me.

However, I think the 10mm is a very good option for those who want a semi-auto pistol for hunting. The other market I see is the backpacker or hiker who wanders into bear or big cat country. For either of these relatively small markets, GLOCK has it covered with their compact G29 and full sized G20.

Because of this small market which is already cornered by another manufactuer, I don't see S&W making a 10mm pistol anytime soon.

Edmo

 

[LimaCharlie]

I have carried a Glock G20 SF and two spare magazines in rural areas since 1992. The fifteen plus one capacity is great if help is an hour or more away. I carry Buffalo Bore or Underwood 180 grain JHP in it. If I want more velocity, I drop in a six inch factory barrel and a 22 pound recoil spring.

I also have a new version Colt Delta Elite and a Kimber Stainless Target II that get carried more often in the winter over my 1911s in .45 ACP. I carry Winchester Silvertip 175 grain in them.

 

[Rastoff]

No need to re-tool. Just bring back the 1006.
Got one....love it.

Stu

That would involve retooling.

 

[loc n load]

10mm's

I have been shooting the 10mm since it's inception....had a Bren ten, have several Colt's, Smith's and Glock's......I carry the G-20 nowadays since I am retired.....I had several friends who were involved with the Smith 10mm during the time the FBI(at the academy level) was wanting to issue it....they were problematic on several accounts....as I mentioned I have a couple and have been a Smith armorer since the late 70's, so I am quite familiar with their strength's and weaknesses..the10mm is also a "challenge" from a training standpoint.....I favor the G-20 for myself, because they are very dependable, durable, accurate and I have a consistent trigger pull from the first to the last w/o the DA/SA transistion.
The 10mm has always been a "special interest" round, and will always be.

 

[Capt_Destro]

What about a custom 10mm barrel in a M&P45 frame? I wonder if lone wolf would be able to make one. 10mm should be able to feed from 45ACP magazines.(Could always alter the feed lips, not like there is a shortage of 45acp magazines)? Would be worth screwing with.

Somebody converted an M&P45 to 460 rowland iirc

 

[Rastoff]

Yes, you could put a 10mm barrel in a .45 M&P. However, you'd definitely have to have new mags made up. I guess you could alter the feed lips on a .45 mag, but it would take some work.

 

[Broke Hoss]

I carried a 1086 for several years. Great gun! The only downside of it was the weight; much heavier than needed IMO.

Mine was super reliable. During a class I attended, our magazines were loaded with a spent round mixed in,to initiate a jam. My 1086 actually chambered the spent casing! A simple slap, rack & bang I was back in business.

 

[forrestinmathews]

Yes, you could put a 10mm barrel in a .45 M&P. However, you'd definitely have to have new mags made up. I guess you could alter the feed lips on a .45 mag, but it would take some work.

I think once the barrel has been done the hard part is over. The mag bodies will have to be heated, adjust and quenched. So what, it has been done with the .40's during the shortage. Folks got pretty good at it. It makes sense to do it to the 14 round extended magazines. I'm guessing we'll get 16-18 in them or more if we go bananas and put extensions. Awesomeness!

 

[Capt_Destro]

I think once the barrel has been done the hard part is over. The mag bodies will have to be heated, adjust and quenched. So what, it has been done with the .40's during the shortage. Folks got pretty good at it. It makes sense to do it to the 14 round extended magazines. I'm guessing we'll get 16-18 in them or more if we go bananas and put extensions. Awesomeness!

That's what I was thinking actually. Id love to see it happen.

 

[Rastoff]

Sure, it can be done, but the home made mags will not be as reliable as a true made from scratch mag. The concept is good, why not do it right?

Anyone who made the barrel could also have the mags made to the proper dimensions. It would be a small, but profitable undertaking.

 

[loc n load]

Mag's

The lack of mag's is one of the big factor's that doomed the Bren Ten.....we had pistols, but no mag's.....the outfit that was contracted to make the mag's had all kinds of "issues"....as a result you saw Bren's for sale, but no mag's.....I had three mag's with mine when I sold it, and that was unheard of.
Magazines are the "life blood" of any mag fed platform, so they better be good quality, reliable and available.

Sure, it can be done, but the home made mags will not be as reliable as a true made from scratch mag. The concept is good, why not do it right?

Anyone who made the barrel could also have the mags made to the proper dimensions. It would be a small, but profitable undertaking.

 

[forrestinmathews]

Magazine tuning is nothing more than bending the feed lips to proper constriction and polishing the insides. I don't think there will be any issues with the follower and the slight constriction from .45 to 10mm. The fact that we're not trying for super capacity with aftermarket springs and followers means we should get decent life out of them.

I don't think it will be all that profitable for someone to make dedicated magazines. There are folks that are willing to jump on the bandwagon if/when somebody else makes one. The true tinkerers aren't as many. Realistically we may not even need to tweak the mags to make them work. Even better for those that hop back and forth between .45 and 10mm.

 

[BruceM]

The lack of mag's is one of the big factor's that doomed the Bren Ten.....we had pistols, but no mag's.....the outfit that was contracted to make the mag's had all kinds of "issues"....as a result you saw Bren's for sale, but no mag's.....I had three mag's with mine when I sold it, and that was unheard of.
Magazines are the "life blood" of any mag fed platform, so they better be good quality, reliable and available.

This statement, like everything else associated with the Bren Ten, is Gunzine-internet enhanced myth. The magazines referred to were actually built by MEC-GAR of Italy. Yes, that MEC-GAR. When Dornaus & Dixon folded, they had over a thousand of the original MEC-GAR dual caliber magazines in inventory plus components to build a couple of thousand of the 2nd generation 10mm caliber specific magazines. The reason the company failed way due to the fact it was under capitalized, plain and simple.

The FBI's version of the S&W 10mm pistol failed because the gun was built the way the FBI wanted it even though Smith & Wesson told them there would be problems with some of the changes they requested. This could account for all the issues loc n load saw as opposed to the experiences of civilian shooters and non FBI LEO shooters. Anyway, that is the way the situation with the FBI was explained to me and I tend to believe it.

Bruce

 

[loc n load]

Bruce M

In regards to the Bren.....they may have had the mags and components, but they certainly were not getting them out to the folk's who had bought their pistols, those who owned them ( I did) and wanted mag's were hard pressed to acquire them & if you were able to contact the mfgr of the Bren - they blamed the magazine vendor for mag's not being available - I am not parroting something I read on the internet - this was my personal experience living in S.Cal at that time, and you are most correct about other factors contributing to the demise of the Bren..they had a product, but no viable business model.....but customer support is always a big factor also.... you are also correct that the FBI played a role in the difficulties experienced by Smith in trying to meet the desired design parameters for a 10mm pistol for that agency.
Back when the Bren was on the scene we did not have the wonders of communication that we have now.....we had "hard line" telephones, magazines, catalogs and mail.....so communicating with companies that did not answer their phones, or return calls or respond to mail enquiries was quite frustrating. It would have really been wonderful to have been able to "google" for Bren Ten mag's or have a company web site to order from, or to voice our opinions on a forum such as this one, but we would have had to have had computers and the internet to do so....which we didn't....we had to rely on the companies to deliver what they promised & advertised and in the case of Dornaus & Dixon, they didn't deliver.

 

[Doug M.]

I would be hesitant to use a cobbled up magazine for serious purposes. They are too critical to functioning for me to want to take the risk. Given the gluteal discomfort and expense factors, if I wanted a 10mm pistol, the G20 still seems to be a winner. As a bonus, with a drop in barrel, you can use it for .40S&W (and unlike the 22/23, it should work with a light) or .357Sig.

A local officer has one and swears by it, for those and other reasons.

 

[Rastoff]

Magazine tuning is nothing more than bending the feed lips to proper constriction and polishing the insides.

The problem is, to make a reliable bend, the metal must be heated. If not done correctly, this could result in unreliable mags.

This leads to two questions:
1. How much would it cost to produce the mags?
2. What are people willing to spend for these mags?

Obviously, if people are only willing to spend $20/mag and it costs $19/mag to make them, then it's not worth doing. But, if folks are willing to spend $40/mag and it costs $20/mag to produce, then there's profit to be had. Alas, I think it will cost more than $20/mag to make.

Realistically we may not even need to tweak the mags to make them work. Even better for those that hop back and forth between .45 and 10mm.

This is a good thought. So, I just loaded some .40 snap caps in one of my .45 mags. The rounds were held in place by the feed lips. I don't know how reliable they would be under use, but it is a possibility.

 

[BruceM]

In view of the fact that I spent 6-7 years of my life doing research for the book "Bren Ten-The Heir Apparent", have spoken to Tom Dornaus numerous times; I actually have a pretty good grasp of what was going on inside the factory, the relationship between Dornaus & Dixon, MEC-GAR and the importer D&D was forced to use as a go between plus an overview of the bankruptcy and class action proceedings. Above and beyond that, the time line relative to the gun's actual manufacture is actually quite short so what was left in inventory is actually quite relevant. Many Bren Tens which originally shipped without magazines never had their magazine wells broached to final dimensions. When the magazines finally arrived at the factory, D&D required that these guns be returned for said modification. By this time, rumors of D&D's possible bankruptcy were spreading so owners were obviously reluctant to return their guns. D&D was equally adamant about not shipping magazines to owners without performing the final machining because of product liability concerns and the predictable Mexican standoff ensued. The problem, in fact, did originate with MEC-GAR in Italy and was not a dodge by Dornaus and Dixon. As to Dornaus & Dixon's customer service in general and Harlene Merske in particular, their performance is a function of a failing company in general and there is no defense for it.

Sorry for hi-jacking this thread but I feel my grasp of this particular situation is a bit broader than that of a single retail customer although all he can do is base his opinions on his experiences. I would in all likelihood react in a similar manner. D&D made numerous mistakes, took a number of chances and never caught a single break during the entire exercise.

Bruce

 

[loc n load]

BruceM

I applaud your efforts, your research and efforts into documenting the story of the Bren and all of it's "birthing difficulties"....as you point out I am not a "subject matter expert", just a working cop & handgun enthusiast that spent his hard earned money for what I hoped would be a great pistol. Events as you mention proved otherwise.... I agree with you that it is a shame that D&D "flamed out" the way they did. Opportunity missed.

 

[forrestinmathews]

The problem is, to make a reliable bend, the metal must be heated. If not done correctly, this could result in unreliable mags.

This leads to two questions:
1. How much would it cost to produce the mags?
2. What are people willing to spend for these mags?

Obviously, if people are only willing to spend $20/mag and it costs $19/mag to make them, then it's not worth doing. But, if folks are willing to spend $40/mag and it costs $20/mag to produce, then there's profit to be had. Alas, I think it will cost more than $20/mag to make.

This is a good thought. So, I just loaded some .40 snap caps in one of my .45 mags. The rounds were held in place by the feed lips. I don't know how reliable they would be under use, but it is a possibility.

The problem in producing mags is going to be the resounding posterior sensitivity due to mag scalpers. We'll have to see what the feed lip durability is over time.