T vs MOE

[pdub]

So, new to the AR platform, and thanks to a metric buttload of generosity...I will be able to get one of the above listed guns for freeeeeee The question of the day is..which one? Logic I suppose would instantly dictate the MOE(tis pricier, after all), but I really like the idea of ditching the fixed front sight, as I'll be using optics on it(main use will be varmint/pred hunting). The Tactical ditches the sight, allowing me I think more optic options...but the MOE gives me a mid-length gas system. Being new to the platform I'm admittedly green on many aspects, so in a nutshell...is the upgraded barrel and mid-length system worth the hassle(such as it may be) of dealing with the front sight, that I really don't want to start with? Or..is the difference in gas systems minor enough to not worry about it. Thanks for any thoughts on this....looking forward to the acquisition, just want to make sure I make the right choice.

 

[thecatch8]

The 15T gives you a FF rail out of the box which will be better for accuracy over the MOE, and the LP gas block will give you more options if you want to swap out rails. For me it's a no brainer, but some get caught up in the Magpul hype machine only to end up swapping out furniture down the road once they see the light....and you can use the difference to get an optic!

Disclaimer, I don't run anything magpul other than Pmags on my weapon system.

 

[uncledoggle]

A "T" seems like a better starting point in doing you part to grow the economy.

 

[moe smith]

I vote MOE. Though both barrels are 1/8 twist the MOE is 4150 as opposed to 4140. That should extend the life of the barrel by 6-700 years.

Actually, the MOE for the mid length. The sight won't be an issue for optics.

Welcome to the forum,

MOE

 

[Waywatcher]

I'd never looked at either one until I saw your thread here, so I am coming in with a clean perspective.

Honestly, I think either one would be a fine choice. If both were laid in front of me and I got to pick one, I would pick the MOE. The Magpul furniture is quality stuff and would save money in the long run.

 

[webfarmer]

I vote MOE. Could have bought any configuration quite honestly but liked everything about the MOE over the 'T'. I don't know about the Magpul hype - I use and enjoy many of their products. The mid-length is desirable as I believe it's easier on the rifle. I enjoy the Chris Costa DVD's as a bonus too. What it really boils down to is what you find pleasing to the eye, your wallet and the drool factor (your personal preference)

 

[Kadonny]

For what you are going to use it for, I'd go MOE also. The T is great if you want to hang a bunch of tactical stuff on the rails, but other than that the MOE is a better overall rifle. The MOE furniture is quality, so you won't have to mess with that if you don't want to. The front sight post is no big deal if you add an optic, in fact it gives you flexibility and back up sights in case the optic dies and you can co-witness them.

MOE all the way.

 

[pdub]

Thanks guys. I'm in a unique situation where cost is a non-issue(not because I'm wealthy...just the situation), so it's not a money thing, but a value/quality question. (edited due to doing my own research..)..Reading up on this more on some other forums, the midlength seems to be winning out. I guess the big question I have is, is it reasonable (or even needed) to remove/swap out the front sight/gas block for a low profile one if my intent is to put optics(scope with some magnification) on it? In a nutshell I guess, my question is this...if someone literally told you you could have one of those two rifles for free, in terms of the rifle itself(I know magpul is good stuff, but the more important thing f or me is the rifle itself)...which do you chose?

 

[cyphertext]

What type of optics are you planning to use? If it is anything over 3x magnification, you will not see the front sight post in the optic.

The MOE does have the "upgraded" barrel made from 4150. However, these are semi automatic rifles and I do not think you will be able to see an advantage of 4150 over the 4140 steel on the 15T.

The 15T is free floated, but if you do not like the rail it comes with, you may end up having to change out the barrel nut to put on a different rail, depending on which one you choose. If you have to change the barrel nut, you have to remove the gas block. If you are having to remove the gas block anyway, it is just as easy to free float the MOE barrel... you just have to buy a low profile gas block, or shave the FSB down.

The MOE also comes with the MOE receiver and the Magpul Dynamics videos.

I would go with the MOE and shoot it. I can always free float the MOE at a later time.

 

[gdnagle]

Thanks guys. I'm in a unique situation where cost is a non-issue(not because I'm wealthy...just the situation), so it's not a money thing, ...which do you chose?

Well you could get them both. Me I personally would go for the MOE. even if you decide later you don't like the MOE furniture you could always sell it and put on what you want. I have a older MOE and the front sight doesn't interfere with my scope. You have already heard the added features of the MOE.

 

[JaPes]

Just my preference, but I'd go for the MOE. The MOE has:

• Midlength Gas System
• MOE grip
• MOE Stock

While the 15-T has a free float rail, I prefer a longer rail. That would then negate the free float advantage of the 15-T.

Either one you pick, it will be good. Just buy the one that calls out to you.

 

[pdub]

The MOE definitely seems to be the better choice, so I do think that's the way I'm going to go. I was not sure you could remove the gas block, but it seems you must be able to. As far as optics go...I'm not even sure yet, thinking a low power variable, or a reflex/red dot type with multiplier. Either way from what I read the front sight is really not an issue(either it's not visible at all, or with a reflex type sight, it can be integrated into the system anyway. Since the additional cost is not an issue, I might as well start out with the more advanced system!

 

[JaPes]

I was not sure you could remove the gas block, but it seems you must be able to.

The A2 front sight / gas block can be removed. It's not difficult. Just follow the instructions step by step.

IMO, whatever rifle you decide to purchase...go shoot it a bunch as it is right out of the box. First, you need to confirm that the rifle is problem free out of the box. Second, most of your questions will be answered via some range time. Get a feel for it before changing it.

 

[thecatch8]

Just my preference, but I'd go for the MOE. The MOE has:

• Midlength Gas System
• MOE grip
• MOE Stock

While the 15-T has a free float rail, I prefer a longer rail. That would then negate the free float advantage of the 15-T.

Either one you pick, it will be good. Just buy the one that calls out to you.

How is a crappy MOE stock that has excessive play with no lock mechanism a selling point? You can purchase all the Magpul furniture on the MOE for a little over $100, and the gas length difference between the two is a non factor for me. LMT, Colt, DD, and BCM all offer carbine length 16" middy's and sell them by the truckloads. I have shot both carbine and mid-length with a 16" barrel and it is IMO overstated, and a non factor. After paying $800 for my 15T, there is no way I could justify paying $1,200 for the MOE simply because is has entry level furniture, a DVD and mid-length gas system!

 

[cyphertext]

How is a crappy MOE stock that has excessive play with no lock mechanism a selling point?

The Magpul MOE stock is an upgrade over the standard stock. We put one on my son's M&P 15-22, and it has far less play than the standard stock.

You can purchase all the Magpul furniture on the MOE for a little over $100,

Agree

and the gas length difference between the two is a non factor for me. LMT, Colt, DD, and BCM all offer carbine length 16" middy's and sell them by the truckloads. I have shot both carbine and mid-length with a 16" barrel and it is IMO overstated, and a non factor.

Many people like the middy gas system. I am not aware of a Colt version, so if they do offer one, it must be new... not sure how the fact that other manufacturers sell them by the truck load help your argument though...

After paying $800 for my 15T, there is no way I could justify paying $1,200 for the MOE simply because is has entry level furniture, a DVD and mid-length gas system!

You forgot about the different barrel steel, the different lower, the different flash hider... and who is paying $1200 for a MOE? There is only $100 difference in MSRP between the 15T and the MOE, and even less in street price. From what I am seeing, the MOE is the better buy... but that doesn't matter to the OP, he isn't buying.

 

[moe smith]

Yeah, I don't know where 1250 comes from. I think I paid 1050, at Gander Mountain, who BTW isn't known for their bargain pricing.

The furniture wasn't my determining factor, the barrel and mid length configuration were, but I have to tell you, the MOE furniture is very comfortable, a heck of alot more comfortable than any rail I've ever tried, and I don't know how an adjustable stock could possibly be any tighter. There is no slop in mine.

As for optics, here's a thread I started when I was going through optic picking gymnastics. Lots of great suggestions in there and a pic of what I settled on...

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p15-rifles/347878-scoping-things-out.html

Either rifle will be a great choice but don't sell the MID MOE short, it's a class act.

 

[thecatch8]

The Magpul MOE stock is an upgrade over the standard stock. We put one on my son's M&P 15-22, and it has far less play than the standard stock.


Agree



Many people like the middy gas system. I am not aware of a Colt version, so if they do offer one, it must be new... not sure how the fact that other manufacturers sell them by the truck load help your argument though...




You forgot about the different barrel steel, the different lower, the different flash hider... and who is paying $1200 for a MOE? There is only $100 difference in MSRP between the 15T and the MOE, and even less in street price. From what I am seeing, the MOE is the better buy... but that doesn't matter to the OP, he isn't buying.

Simple.....the fact that so many enthusiasts are buying them, helps support my assertion that carbine vs mid length is a non issue! By the time the average shooter puts enough led through their rifles that they would need to be replaced.....is purchasing a new barrel for a couple hundred bucks every 10 years really a deal breaker?

 

[WA101]

I have the MOE Mid and I would definitely recommend it. The mid-length gas system is really nice both functionally and ergonomically due to the longer forward hand guard it affords.

As for the front sight post, I wouldn't worry about it. Based on your interest in varmint/predator shooting, I'm guessing you'll be headed towards a magnified scope type optic. By the time you mount the scope to clear the folded rear MBUS, the scope reticle will be above the front post at 1X and the front post will completely disappear at magnifications above 2.5X.

I have a 1-4X scope on my MOE Mid and the front post doesn't bother me at all.

Mounted scope...

View thru scope at 1X...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[JaPes]

How is a crappy MOE stock that has excessive play with no lock mechanism a selling point? You can purchase all the Magpul furniture on the MOE for a little over $100, and the gas length difference between the two is a non factor for me. LMT, Colt, DD, and BCM all offer carbine length 16" middy's and sell them by the truckloads. I have shot both carbine and mid-length with a 16" barrel and it is IMO overstated, and a non factor. After paying $800 for my 15T, there is no way I could justify paying $1,200 for the MOE simply because is has entry level furniture, a DVD and mid-length gas system!

Because it's my preference? I prioritize a mid length gas system and the 4150 barrel over the rebranded UTG free float rail quad rail system. I don't like the bulk of a quad rail, nor the length of the quad rail. Since I would be swapping the rail, I'd rather have a standard barrel nut on a factory rifle. I have a few rail options that use the standard barrel nut, making modifications easier. I also prefer the Magpul grip and stock. The lower receiver is different on the MOE. I've shot a carbine length and a middy too. Maybe YOU can't discern a noticeable difference, but I can. I perceive less recoil impulse with the middy.

I did preface my post by stating it was my preference. I'm not selling a rifle to anyone, nor am I knocking your preferences that led you to a 15-T. It's just my choice.

 

[Rastoff]

...rebranded UTG...

This has not been proven yet. So, we still don't know that it's a UTG.

I have all three gas systems; carbine, mid and rifle length. I see absolutely no difference in the operation. Therefore, I wouldn't pick solely based on gas system length.

With a low pro gas block and a free float forearm, any gas system can be used. However, I do like the forearm length of the mid length drop in system better than the carbine.

The A2 front sight is easy to change out. It sounds complicated when the process is written down, but it's really easy. New gas blocks are also easy to install and can be had for about $50 or less.

So, I'd go for the MOE.

 

[cyphertext]

This has not been proven yet. So, we still don't know that it's a UTG.

99.8% sure. Looks just like a the UTG Pro. Uses the same barrel nut system... Looks and quacks like a duck.

 

[pdub]

Actually, I really kind of like that look, with the sight under the optic ret. I was thinking along the lines of 1-4/2-5 range, perhaps the Bushnell line of optics. I'm definitely going with the MOE, as it seems the overwhelming choice not only here but now that I've dug a bit more into it, and the advantages(potential at least) of the mid length system. If I was paying then yeah, the money might be an issue, but even then it seems a pretty minor difference. In my case, that's not an issue, so again...I cannot see a reason NOT to go this route. If I don't like something down the road, I'll just change it, which is the beauty of a modular rifle!
Edited to add, that Burris is really clear. Might have to look into that..

View thru scope at 1X...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[thecatch8]

99.8% sure. Looks just like a the UTG Pro. Uses the same barrel nut system... Looks and quacks like a duck.

it's UTG....I don't know why we keep going around and around on this topic in here. And I still can't concede that removing the A2, installing a new LP gas block, and cutting into the Delta Ring with a dremel on the MOE is easier than simply swapping out barrel nuts and screwing down a new FF rail on the 15T.....it took my gunsmith 20 minutes!

 

[cyphertext]

Simple.....the fact that so many enthusiasts are buying them, helps support my assertion that carbine vs mid length is a non issue! By the time the average shooter puts enough led through their rifles that they would need to be replaced.....is purchasing a new barrel for a couple hundred bucks every 10 years really a deal breaker?

I'm not following... are you saying that because so many enthusiasts are purchasing the mid length gas system, it helps your assertion that carbine vs. mid length is a non issue?

How does the length of the gas system affect barrel life? There is supposed to be less wear on the bolt and carrier, but I have never heard of any advantage regarding barrel life.

 

[thecatch8]

I'm not following... are you saying that because so many enthusiasts are purchasing the mid length gas system, it helps your assertion that carbine vs. mid length is a non issue?

How does the length of the gas system affect barrel life? There is supposed to be less wear on the bolt and carrier, but I have never heard of any advantage regarding barrel life.

Correct, you're not tracking......my response was two fold in regards to both gas length and barrel construction.

And my assertion is simply this; that there are several top end rifle manufacturers selling thousands of carbine length middy's to satisfied customers who know the difference between the two is inconsequential....thus it is my contention that gas length should not be a factor in deciding between the MOE and 15T.

 

[cyphertext]

it's UTG....I don't know why we keep going around and around on this topic in here. And I still can't concede that removing the A2, installing a new LP gas block, and cutting into the Delta Ring with a dremel on the MOE is easier than simply swapping out barrel nuts and screwing down a new FF rail on the 15T.....it took my gunsmith 20 minutes!

You don't have to cut the delta ring off... you can remove the barrel nut and remove the clamp that holds the delta ring and spring on the barrel nut. Cutting it with the dremel just allows you to do it without removing the barrel nut.

If you are removing the gas block to put on a free float rail, it isn't any harder to replace the A2 FSB with a low profile gas block. It really is 6 in one hand, half dozen in the other.

 

[Rastoff]

And I still can't concede that removing the A2, installing a new LP gas block, and cutting into the Delta Ring with a dremel on the MOE is easier than simply swapping out barrel nuts and screwing down a new FF rail on the 15T.....it took my gunsmith 20 minutes!

Why would you cut the delta ring?

Also, your gunsmith needs some more experience. I'm no gunsmith and I can remove a muzzle device, A2 sight, delta ring and barrel nut, and install a new barrel nut, gas block, muzzle device and free float forearm in about 10 minutes.

I think this is something every AR owner should experience. It's that easy.

 

[Rastoff]

99.8% sure. Looks just like a the UTG Pro. Uses the same barrel nut system... Looks and quacks like a duck.

OK, but even if it is, it's USA made and a solid part.

 

[thecatch8]

OK, but even if it is, it's USA made and a solid part.

It's heavy, it's bulky, it is not a well made rail (including fit and finish)......hardly anyone is running quads these days because no one besides range ninjas need that much mounting space on their rifle. Everyone is going KMR or modular rails now...they are lighter, better, and way more practical than quads. Are you the president of the UTG fanclub?

 

[pdub]

I think the fact that is appears straight forward to swap out the front end(sight, forearm, etc.) is what swayed me to the MOE. Originally I was leaning toward the T due to the sight on the front(well, NOT on the front I should say), but at the end of the day, even if it's just a better barrel(and I know even that is arguable), I'm again not paying for it...so I see no reason NOT to get the (slightly) higher end model. BTW, I didn't intend this to devolve into a debate over which was "better"...but, thus is the way of the internet... Regardless, thanks all for the thoughts!