Tactical Burn-Out

Back in 93 right before the Clinton gun ban, I bought an AR15, called a Colt Sporter then. Since it was so cool it was about to be banned, I thought I should get one.

The cool factor soon wore off. It is heavier than my bolt action rifle and less ergonomic. The magazine gets in the way. It is harder to shoot off-hand. Maintenance is more of a nuisance.

Most of the people I see with them put huge overpowered scopes on them and shoot from a bench.

I don't claim to be a great rifle shot. I was at the range one day with my 03a3, this particular range is restricted to 100 yds bench only. There were a couple guys with scoped AR15s. Apparently they were watching my target, they came over and complemented my shooting. I didn't see their targets, but from their comments my groups were as good as theirs.

They didn't strike me as mall ninjas, just a couple guys shooting their rifle of choice.

Myself, shooting from a bench bores me. I don't like rifles that are too heavy to shoot off-hand. Accurate shooting interests me much more than the ability to spray rounds down range.
 
What the tact tee cool people call a pistol grip on a shotgun is really an abomination. I have shotguns with Prince of Wales, straight hand and pistol grips but none have abominations on them. Larry
 
Arik said:
No its both. A century ago the most common rifle on the battlefield was a bolt action. Now the most common rifle is at least a semi auto. Tactics are also different. Try that today with 20 men who are armed with G36 select fire rifles holding 30 round mags and capable of 750 rounds per min of sustained fire...with each soldier carrying around 210 - 240 rounds. That's at least 4200 rounds.
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I would respectfully suggest that the situation Alvin York faced that day in 1918 was at least as dire and deadly as the scenario you describe above.

Here is the wording of his Medal of Honor citation:

"After his platoon had suffered heavy casualties and 3 other noncommissioned officers had become casualties, Cpl. York assumed command. Fearlessly leading 7 men, he charged with great daring a machinegun nest which was pouring deadly and incessant fire upon his platoon. In this heroic feat the machinegun nest was taken, together with 4 officers and 128 men and several guns." (Source:
CMOHS.org - Corporal YORK, ALVIN C., U.S. Army )

And here is what happened in Alvin York's own words:

"The Germans got us, and they got us right smart. They just stopped us dead in our tracks. Their machine guns were up there on the heights overlooking us and well hidden, and we couldn't tell for certain where the terrible heavy fire was coming from... And I'm telling you they were shooting straight. Our boys just went down like the long grass before the mowing machine at home. Our attack just faded out... And there we were, lying down, about halfway across [the valley] and those German machine guns and big shells getting us hard.

And those machine guns were spitting fire and cutting down the undergrowth all around me something awful. And the Germans were yelling orders. You never heard such a racket in all of your life. I didn't have time to dodge behind a tree or dive into the brush... As soon as the machine guns opened fire on me, I began to exchange shots with them. There were over thirty of them in continuous action, and all I could do was touch the Germans off just as fast as I could. I was sharp shooting... All the time I kept yelling at them to come down. I didn't want to kill any more than I had to. But it was they or I. And I was giving them the best I had." (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York )
 
Arik said:
You missed my whole point. I wasn't taking anything away from him or the men there
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I didn't say you were taking anything away from York. It appeared you were suggesting that he faced off against men armed, as he was, with bolt-action rifles, and that today, the outcome would be different. In fact, re-reading your post, I don't see that you were making any other point.
 
I guess I must be odd man out. I served in the Army from July 1967 to March 1970. During that time I never handled much less fired am M-16. I did fire several M-14's including a few National Match converted ones. Of course I never went to Vietnam either and I was not in combat arms. I have never owned nor shot an AR anything. I do own and shoot a NM M-14 and a DCM M1 Garand. I would like to maybe sometime own an AR 10 but doubt I ever will. I have nothing against anyone that shoots AR's but it is just not my cup of tea. I would much rather shoot one of my bolt action silhouette rifles or one of my single shoot BPCR rifles.
 
Eh... a lot of guys enjoy that there is an endless variety of aftermarket gear for their ARs. It's a hobby. It's fun.
Heck, the fact that is causes heartburn to missionary position purists makes it that much more fun! :D
 
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I would really.....

Beemerguy53 said:
Almost a century ago, Sergeant Alvin York used a bolt-action rifle and a 1911 pistol -- both plain and unadorned -- to kill 20 German soldiers and capture 132 others.

It ain't what you got...it's how you use it! :)
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I would really like to see that. Not the German. Just York working the bolt, aiming and shooting. He also had to reload twice.
 
J. W. said:
Totally agree about the tactical burnout. Tacti-cool has become fashionable and it sells products these days.

As a LEO, I've got some tactical gear including an AR equipped with an Eotech and Surefire flashlight and a plate carrier with extra rifle and pistol mags. That stuff rides in the trunk the majority of the time.

No doubt good tactics and equipment saves lives when you're actually amongst those closing with the enemy, but things have gotten a little absurd. I see guys on various forums that are better equipped than the average soldier, marine and policeman. I just shake my head and wonder what it's like to have that much disposable income to throw around. ;)
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Same here. With places like AR500 offering body armor rated to .308 for around $300, more than a few officers have purchased them privately and they ride in the trunk with the now ubiquitous.223 rifle and shotgun. And why not? Our mission statement has never changed but our SOP sure has. We are seeing an increase in SKS/AK/AR style rifles being confiscated from gang members and drug houses. How often are they used...probably 2 out of a hundred instances but it has happened. If $300 for heavier body armor allows me a better chance to save a 21 gun salute then I'm all for it. My AR has an aimpoint, sure fire light and a 2 point sling that's it. Some people like more than that power to them.

But it is fun to run an all day class with a S&W 640 and smoke guys with Glocks [emoji48]
 
i tried to do a thread on this topic a while back and it's hard to describe the mindset.

There used to be a guy that posted on anoTHeR forum that never left his home unless he was wearing BDU style pants, combat boots and a rigger belt plus his GLUNK,(and a BUG ) plus a couple of 300.00 $ folders and a 2 million lumen flashlight and OC spray.

He routinely said if you left your home with any less you simply weren't prepared to defend yourself.

When I first started carrying I fell prey to the idea that I had to be prepared for every eventuality or I couldn't leave my home. I was constantly upgrading and refining my "load out". Then one day I realized I never used half the junk I was carrying and I quit.

I now carry my gun, 2 reloads, a pocket knife (25.00$ Buck), a multi tool ( that I actually use at work) and a 25.00 Fenix flash light.

I also make a point of not wearing "tactical" clothing because I think it's a give away.
 
Ed Heinemann (the designer of the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk) believed in "simplifying and adding lightness" when it came to aircraft design.

A lot to be said for that.
 
EQGuy said:
I guess I must be odd man out. I served in the Army from July 1967 to March 1970. During that time I never handled much less fired am M-16. I did fire several M-14's including a few National Match converted ones. Of course I never went to Vietnam either and I was not in combat arms. I have never owned nor shot an AR anything. I do own and shoot a NM M-14 and a DCM M1 Garand. I would like to maybe sometime own an AR 10 but doubt I ever will. I have nothing against anyone that shoots AR's but it is just not my cup of tea. I would much rather shoot one of my bolt action silhouette rifles or one of my single shoot BPCR rifles.
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I own a Colt HBAR AR and a Springfield Armory M1-A, both of which I have had for more than 20 years. (The latter is a 'loaded' model that is basically a National Match rifle, with glass-bedded action, NM barrel, trigger, sights, etc.) I like shooting the AR...but I LOVE shooting that M1-A! :)
 
You guys have....

GaBoy45 said:
Same here. With places like AR500 offering body armor rated to .308 for around $300, more than a few officers have purchased them privately and they ride in the trunk with the now ubiquitous.223 rifle and shotgun. And why not? Our mission statement has never changed but our SOP sure has. We are seeing an increase in SKS/AK/AR style rifles being confiscated from gang members and drug houses. How often are they used...probably 2 out of a hundred instances but it has happened. If $300 for heavier body armor allows me a better chance to save a 21 gun salute then I'm all for it. My AR has an aimpoint, sure fire light and a 2 point sling that's it. Some people like more than that power to them.

But it is fun to run an all day class with a S&W 640 and smoke guys with Glocks [emoji48]
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You LEO guys have more than plenty of reason to obtain 'tactical' gear. And I advocated police having and using rifles in another thread. When the distance opens up a little, the guy with the rifle has a tremendous advantage. Now me, I don't need to play Army or SWAT team. I just like to shoot.:)
 
IMAG0909.jpg



When I want to look Tacticool - I put on my brain tanned rifleman's frock, knee breeches, leggings and powder horn/ Shot pouch belt knife and tomahawk with my 1792 Contract Rifle reproduction (although in this sketch I am carrying my 50 Caliber Lancaster Rifle)
 
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One of the venders at the NRA convention looked at me and said
"If it is not Tactical, Then it is not Practical":rolleyes::rolleyes:

I was laminating about all the "black" and "plastic" guns and wondering where the nice deep blued steel and fancy walnut stocked guns had gone. Thought about his comments, so in 2015 :
"If it is not Tactical, Then it is not Practical"

Anyone ever invent H G Well's time machine, I am going back to the days of deep polished and blued steel and nice figured french walnut.
 
I guess if "tactical" is an insult now, I'll just have to live with it. Each item on my rifle has a purpose. I wouldn't have it if it didn't.

IMAG1592_zps94e243c5.jpg


I can tell you this, though. When I had that bad boy out in a driving rain a few months ago, in the middle of the night in the deep, deep woods, looking for a very bad man...each of those tactical accessories, designed to give me an advantage, sure did make me feel much more confident in my abilities versus my opponent.
 
Maybe I'm getting old, but I miss the days when an "operator" was the gal at the other end of the phone.

As a LEO I have an AR-15, but it is rather plain, with an issue EOTech and a sling. But it works well, and I'm glad I have it.
 
Seriously (I occasionally can manage that) I am a firm believer that Hollywood and TV are the most powerful conduit that feeds the gun buying public.

The anti-gun politicians run a close second.

I have read that Colt was going to deep-six the SAA but too many people were watching too many westerns and the demand made Colt get back into the market, hence the "Second Generation SAA".

"Well punk, do you feel lucky?" sold more S&W .44 Magnums than any other possible advertisement.

Detective shows sold a lot of Detective Specials.

Current media sells a LOT of tactical type weapons.

The tactical weapons have their place, and people who actually do not "need" them but just want to collect them have their place as well. It was mainly the "tactical weapons crowd" who reared their heads when the government was wanting to ban things.

It's the people who show up at the gun show as if they are going out on a night mission that amuse me. But, they just might be as "bad" as they imply. I don't bother to ask.
 
RIP, tactical. I gave up and accepted it's loss as a meaningful adjective when I saw a "tactical" tomahawk in the Cabelas catalog.

A perfectly good word who's meaning has been perverted by advertisers (and gullible people who don't know English) to mean anything that looks remotely like a weapon or M&P equipment.
 
OK having read this thread........ I have to admit ........... I have AR pattern rifles..... with Aimpoints.. and slings....and I own a bunch of 30 rd. magazines.....

Please forgive me...........but

I like 10 and 20 round magazines......can't remember the last time I used a 30rd mag.

I shoot my CZ FSs (mannlichers) more than my AR..... by a "long shot".

If the SHTF......I'm sure my food and water supplies will see more use than my ARs.

My most used piece of daily carry gear is my single AAA-battery flashlight.

I don't feel undergunned carrying a 3913 with just a 7rd magazine and a spare 8rd. one.

I still use the same grip on my pistols that I did in the 80s.....

I don't own a pair of BDUs or 511 pants.......

When I use to wear my "Shoot me first vest" all the time...... it was full of stuff for the baby....... or later .....the kids........

I do own a "Instructors belt"......only cus you can't buy a good web belt anymore.

I chuckle when I see someone at the range shooting an AR or AK at 30 feet and making patterns like buckshot at 30 yds.

I wish I could be tacticooooool........
 
Vanilla Gorilla said:
I guess if "tactical" is an insult now, I'll just have to live with it.

...each of those tactical accessories, designed to give me an advantage, sure did make me feel much more confident in my abilities versus my opponent.
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We're not discussing police or military folks and their tactical gear- I don't think anyone in here is "insulting" a police officer for owning and using tactical gear in the line of duty. If you're insulted then you either missed the point completely or you've gotten very thin-skinned.

It's not even about ARs or AKs owned by regular citizens. It's about the silliness of (what seems to be) the majority of posters on some forums who seem to think they will be facing an army when they go grocery shopping or out to eat.

I asked a guy who is right handed why he was adding an ambi safety to his 1911- it was in case his right arm was disabled in a firefight and he had to shoot lefty. But couldn't you just swing your left thumb over to disengage the safety? Well, yeah, but that might be too slow.

There also seems to be a lot of people who think they need (as regular citizens) combat arms training if they have any hope of surviving an encounter with a criminal. Sure, it's an interesting exercise to shoot a few strings with the gun in your off-side hand, or shooting around a barricade, but paying thousand$ for training from some guy who may or may not have been a navy seal is kind of ...uh... overkill?

Threads about how much stuff one carries on their 'bat-belt', multiple knives, flashlights, two handguns, 78 rounds in backup magazines..... ugh.

Seriously, if you have an extra $100 at the end of the month, would it make you safer to buy another magazine and a box of zombie cartridges or send that $100 to the local food bank?
 
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An extra $100? Please....

Iv'e got nearly $1000 in extras on my AR. Aimpoint and Wilson Combat TTU trigger.

Any yes, equipment does make a difference. My tired old eyes thank me for that Aimpont every time. ;)

ScreenShot2015-01-10at44354PM_zpse600c002.png
 
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