Target Interpretation

[forestswin]

I haven't figured out what's going on with these targets I shot Saturday.
At first I thought, its back to the bench and try something different. But as I looked at the all 4 targets more, I noticed there are patterns and groupings in the scatter.

I'd appreciate any help interpreting these groups altogether. If they were just scatter I'd understand. If its me, how would I flinch or pull shots that repetitively??

all are a 158 grain lead SWC over 14.2 grains or 14.5 grains of 2400
all shot from a rest at 25 yards, using a scope.
Each load was shot with a standard primer and a magnum primer.

My one theory is, that I'm gripping a little bit differently as I shoot the string of 10.

14.2 grains CCI 500 primers ES 84 SD 26


14.2 grains CCI 550 ES=76 SD=24


14.5 grains CCI 500 ES=64 SD=21


14.5 grains CCI 550 ES=88 SD=28 [only 8 rounds this target]


the 3 holes down the left side of each target are from a 3-hole punch...really!

and Rule, yes there is another missing hole. I do not have a backer board for the 3rd target to prove 5 shots in the top left, but I don't think I missed the target altogether

 

[rwsmith]

It looks like....

First, It looks like your scope could use adjustment as all the groups are up and to the left. With a scope and rest that is a pretty well scattered pattern, though. 14.5 grains of 2400 is kind of stiff for a target load. You might want to try something a little more tame to see if that improves target performance.

 

[Peak53]

What gun and barrel length are you shooting? If you rule out operator error, I'd say your gun doesn't like that load. That said, I am shooting a little lighter load of 2400 behind a 158 SWC and getting outstanding results in a Mod 27 5" and a Mod 586 6".

 

[chipking]

Are you still using a 2 handed hold at the rest and are you right handed? I find that when I start putting rounds high left using a 2 handed hold I am squeezing my left hand in anticipation of the round going off. Are the close in shots your first ones? Mine are before I start anticipating.
Chip King

 

[Rpg]

It would be helpful to see a 5 shot target - one shot without reloading.

I wonder if you are getting fatigued as you go along.

 

[jimbo728]

.357 I presume. Watch out for leading with cast bullets at those velocities. Leading will hurt accuracy. I used to load 158gr hard cast bullets with 2400 but ultimately switched to 125gr Jacketed bullets with better results for magnum loads. Now I keep all lead bullet loads under 1000 fps.

 

[Rule3]

I agree with rwsmith. You are shooting pretty much full house mag loads, Why? What happened to you 12 gr loads which were much better.?? Also as you know 2400 does not need mag primers and I do not see that they helped anything?

As it is a 6 shot, 6 shots per target are easier to interpret.


Also agree that scope or red dot needs adjusting as it seems everything is high and left.

For target loads middle of the road usually shoot better.

If I recall Forest is shooting a 686 with 6" barrel.

FWIW and JMO, when I chrono loads I do not care about the target, in fact I do not put a target up I just shoot the berm. I collect my data, then concentrate on shooting groups. That eliminates be altering the gun position for the chrono uprights and focusing on the x ring.

YMMV


I foresee a Ransom Rest in you future

 

[fredj338]

What kind of rest? Often resting the butt of he gun will throw shots, up & away from your shooting hand. i rest over bags, letting the gun have free recoil. It's not likely that all 6 cyl throats are the same, not uncommon for one or more to throw a smaller bullet & a resultant flyer. Shoot 5 sht groups with each cyl, same hold, same load. Mark the cyl, the offending ones will stand out.
Fwiw, I shoot groups over the chrono all the time, you just need a better chrono.

 

[Targetslayer]

This might help. I don't leave home without it.

Targetslayer

 

[MichiganScott]

I agree with Target slayer. Looks like someone is anticipating recoil.

 

[Doubless]

You state that you are shooting cast; your own or commercial? What I see is a definite difference in the weight of the projectiles: the ones that group right next to one another are of the same weight or very close, and the groups move as weight changes.

Try sorting your bullets by weight, and load and shoot the different weight bullets in different groups. I think you will see a marked improvement in the grouping...

 

[Nevada Ed]

Looks pretty good to me but you can start by.....
1. Making sure the scope and mounts are solid.
2. Move impact area 1.5" right & down 1/2" and see what happens.

the one target with two groups of four (4) has me puzzled.
It may be due to grip changes or the placement of the gun on the rest.
With that amount of powder , you are using a medium heavy crimp, right?
My heavier loads needed a heavy crimp for accuracy and the heavier the crimp, I noticed that I could actually back off on the amount of powder and get the same fps as a lighter crimp.
I also noticed at a certain point with LEAD bullets , that maximum SPEED did not guarantee that groups got better......

In my 686, there is a target crimp and a "Sonic" crimp, that I use.

If you have some "Dummy Bullets" (plastic) , you might load six and shoot them at a target and see what the cross hairs in the scope are doing................. there might be a slight "Flaw" in your shooting process?
Best of luck dialing in those lead loads.

PS;
My JHP did ok at 1270 fps.........
did you try the Lswc at around that velocity, by chance?

 

[S&WIowegan]

There are so many possibilities for what's happening here it's mind boggling.

My first thought looking at your targets was your scope mount is screwed up. Could be lots of little things. Second thought is the targets you are using are way less than optimal for shooting groups with a scope. Buy targets with crosshairs on them. It's also gilding the lily to use a scope at 25 yds

You don't even mention what gun you're using or the source and kind of bullets and these things both matter. If you use soft lead bullets with the heavy powder charges, the bullets will deform and lead the heck out of your barrel.

Since you appear to be a total novice, using us for help is a poor way to learn. Don't you know someone locally who really knows their stuff?

 

[brucev]

Just a suggestion, but parallax might be something to consider. It can make a significant difference in on target results if you do not maintain a consistent eye/head position. Also since you are firing from a rest using a scope, a smaller target would be helpful. Depending on the size of the crosshairs, distance to the target, etc., you might find something along the lines of a one inch bullseye to be helpful.

 

[Rule3]

Forest knows what he is doing, He is just a very OCD or AR and Intelligent Engineer

He knows reloading and is very precise and meticulous. We have had many e mail discussions. Don't judge someone by one post on a forum.

 

[scooter123]

I agree with the others that your scope may to be zeroed in a bit more carefully. I also agree that you are shooting too many rounds on one target to get a good grasp of what is going on.

However, I have a hunch based on my own experience that you are having Recoil Management issues. Hard as it may be to believe how you manage the recoil can have an effect on the Point of Impact. Back in 2009 I purchased my first long barreled revolver, a 6 1/2 inch 610 and getting good tight groups with it was a lot more difficult than I expected. It took me a while to figure out what was going on but that long barrel acted to magnify any variation in how I managed the initial recoil while the bullet was transiting the barrel. What confirmed it for me was when I bench rested the gun and did nearly nothing to restrain the barrel from flipping up. That resulted in an instantaneous change of the POI by a whopping 14 inches at 35 yards. The only solution for me was PRACTICE, lots and lots of PRACTICE.

The second thing I think may be going on is simple Fatigue and how it ties in with your Recoil Management. If you start out shooting a nice small group and then start throwing shots high as you tire I can guarantee that you are observing the effect of Fatigue on how you manage the recoil.

 

[tim c]

i agree with most here very hot load and two hand grip if your right handed

 

[m657]

Is there any way you could shoot/post a few targets of something like 148 WC in mild target loadings for comparison?

If you leave all your hardware as it was with these targets and introduced a mild target load, it would better show (as my son's marine instructor taught him) whether you're shooting 'groups' or ' pattern of rat droppings on the bottom of a drawer'.

Another perhaps odd question, is 'are you wearing prescription glasses with a built in prism' on your sighting eye???

 

[vipermd]

All of the above seem possible, but Scooter123 seems to be on to it. Have you been shooting the same amount all winter? It has been a long winter, I am weaker, less focused, and have been practicing with the Sigma 40F, 638, Para carry 12, and rifles. Nearly all the snow is gone, and at 25 with rest/scope I will not be posting my first targets!! Check mounts, rings,load, hand position/rest, but I believe that it is fatigue. When you are looking for perfection fatigue can be a major problem. Sometimes I need to stop, fluids, read ( anything- it will take your mind off targets/guns/etc ) and allow you to go back fresh. I started doing it in school ( I would read something simple, but not the subject matter before tests, I found it worked for me more focused for test,and when shooting and really pushing to wring out a new load/scope/gun.) Be Safe,

 

[forestswin]

First off thank you all for taking the time to post.

and sorry guys here are some of the blanks, the post seemed like it was getting to long.

The scope screws for base and rings are torqued to the recommended ft-lbs. I haven't moved my scope adjustment for over a year and just check zero it with the same ammo every time. - 5.0 grains Unique over a Hornady Swaged Lead SWC on almost every range outing. It tests me and the gun before taking the time to do the test firing. Other loads are all around the target. I don't have a problem with it not being at POA, I am looking for groups.

I'm shooting a S&W 686 6 inch 357 Magnum with MBC 158 grain, SWC's, bevel base, with a BHN of 18 (Action)

I shoot with the underlug right at the trigger guard mashed into sand bags, so the barrel itself doesn't touch anything. My arms are from elbow to wrist resting on an old Army wool blanket. The butt doesn't touch anything, but my hand is on the blanket too


rw
I tried this bullet from 12.0 grains up to 14.0 grains the week before. The 12.8 grain load was okay, but not impressive. This 14.0 to 14.5 load test was a week later because it got too dark for the chrono the first time. At first it looked like scatter to me too, on second look the 1st, 2nd and 3rd targets here show some good grouping, especially the 3rd target - how could I shoot 4 or 5 bullets in 3/4" by accident.

Peak - no I can't rule out operator error, some suggestions here and somewhat what I expected it may very well be my grip

chip
yes, 2 hand hold and I'm right handed - I don't remember which shots were first

Rpg
those loads were pretty snappy, fatigue makes sense

jimbo
I'm trying to find a hard cast bullet that my gun likes in the 17 or 18 BHN range, I already have some good low and midrange loads with softer lead. I want to go through a few more lead possibilities before I try plated or FMJ in this gun

Rule
I shot the 12.0 to 14 's a few weeks back - nothing impressive - so I took it up to 14.5

yes, 6 shots, from now on. I loaded these 10 for each load over the winter - since I'm sticking with 12 or 18 rounds per test on 2 or 3 targets
see scope comment above
I don't get enough range time to make separate tests for chrono and target
yeah - thinking about a Ransom rest

fred
my rest set-up is described above. I've marked the chambers 1 thru 6 several times and shot several rounds of 6. For some reason I do always get a flyer, but its not always from the same chamber.
take a look at this previous test - and then you'll call me very OCD and AR too like my buddy Rule

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/329743-chrono-data-target-groups.html

every shot was into a separate target and I traced them so they would also show up in groups too - shot 1 thru 6 were chambers 1 thru 6 then at shot 7 it was back to chamber 1
what do you mean by I need a better chrono?

Targetslayer & MichiganScott - thanks - it might also be anticipating a pretty snappy recoil

Doubless
commercial - Missouri Bullets 158 grain SWC, Action BHN=18 - I have sorted by weight many times in the past, actually I do most of the time - but not with these bullets - something to do next batch when I retry these same loads

Nevada
the scope is good unless its something internal or just started
I'm thinking grip change
powder and avg V is on the target (at top center) - maybe if I move it out to 25 yards you could see it better with your eagle eyes
heavy crimp
I hit 1260 fps with these bullets with 14.0 grains of 2400

S&WIowegan
I answered above about scope - usually do use sticky targets w/cross hairs but ran out

brucev
I'll pay attention to eye/head position, I do usually use small 1 1/2" targets

Rule
thanks buddy - very AR?? yeah I guess so, just thinking of the thread link I just gave fred - that was pretty AR and OCD

scooter
while keeping the scope set for a different load may have some value in comparing different loads and bullets, I do need to remember this experience, that yes - it would have helped if I adjusted it
not hard to believe at all - "free body diagram" and anything in contact is a support reaction
I am thinking in this case its a combination of many things, but I remember starting out with a very strong grip as I readied, and then relaxing it a little and trying to keep it there and wondering if it was too hard of a grip, because I could feel some pain in my forearm
thanks - definitely another thing to focus on. And I know - practice and no caffiene

tim c
thanks

m657
here...... how is a Hornady 158 grain swaged bullet over 5 grains of Unique


and another


yes wearing prescription glasses - but no prism - they are progressive with no correction on the very bottom to some correction looking slightly down - say at a computer on a desk and for distance at eye level and up

viper
no, only got out a few times over the winter - oh come on misery likes company - post your targets
all good advice - fatigue is not something I was thinking of , more just my grip - but now in hindsight - I think that may have been a major factor.

I'm glad i didn't throw those targets away - I learned a lot.