Tell me about the Model 25

[Hair Trigger]

Some of what I read in the Standard catalog about the Model 25 confuses me. It talks about the long cylinder and short cylinder .45 Colt guns; I know the revolver is also available (and was initially issued) as a .45 ACP, and different dash numbers are either .45ACP or .45 Colt, and the Catalog mentions "few were produced in .45 Colt until 1977 with the 125th Anniversary Commemorative". I assume that means others before that could be special ordered for .45 Colt? Then it says ".45 Colt standard production, long cylinder" began in 1977 with the dash 5.

I'm looking for a M25 in .45 Colt, not interested in .45ACP. Other than the 125th Anniv. model (which is a dash 3) and the dash-5's up to 1982, what other M25's are available in .45 Colt? Are 4" barrels less common than 6", or 8-3/8"?

I have an opportunity for a M25, don't know what dash it is, but it is a 4" .45 Colt and it is a pinned barrel. I can't see enough of it in the display case to guess more about it, but I'm assuming it's a dash-5, as it says "Smith and Wesson" on the left of the barrel, but the anniv. edition has ".45 Caliber" on that side. It looks to be in pretty good shape, I can see a small light scratch on a cylinder flute, but can't see anything on the other side.

So, what else to look for, and what brings the most $$?

 

[Pizza Bob]

If it is a .45 Colt and has a pinned barrel it is a 25-5. Before you buy, you need to check the chamber throat dimensions. Really should be done with a pin gauge, but the easiest way is to take .452 bullet and see if it drops through the throat with no resistance.

I had an early 25-5 (4") and this was before we knew there was a problem, it patterned like a shotgun. The chamber throats measured .458 - .460. I was told, and can't testify as to the veracity of this statement, that the barrels were made to post-war specs while the cylinders were made to pre-war specs.

The 25-3's used the short cylinder of the .45 ACP guns, but was chambered for the .45 Colt. This precluded using some hand loads with cast bullets. Starting with the 25-5 the longer cylinder was used on all guns chambered for the .45 Colt.

25-7 and 25-9 are also .45 Colt as are 25-10 and 25-11 although the 10 & 11 are Heritage series guns. The 25-9's were made in several configurations. A high polish blue with fluted cylinder in normal barrel lengths and a black PVD coated 5" with an unfluted cylinder. Also the 25-13 Mountain Gun.

Here is my 25-10...

and my 25-9...

Good luck in your quest.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

[gmborkovic]

Hello Mr. Hair, its in a display case? Where? A shop? There has to be no
guessing at the money involved.

 

[Doc44]

The Model 25-5 was chambered in 45 Colt Caliber. If I remember correctly this model was introduced in 1978 and was roll marked 45 Colt Ctg or 45 Colt on the right side of the barrel. It was manufactured in 4, 6, and 8 3/8 inch barrel lengths. The barrel pin was eliminated in 1982.

Bill

 

[Narragansett]

I bought one a few months ago. A 25-5 pinned 4" bbl. I have not tested the cambers as Pizza Bob says. I do not see a lot of 4" ones around. There was one that sold on the forum not too long ago. I have seen them online for up to 1900.00. I might imagine you might pay 13-1600 for a really nice one

My guess would be that the 4" would ne more expensive

 

[Laketime]

I will never understand why this gun never reached a higher level of popularity then it did.

 

[Hair Trigger]

Hello Mr. Hair, its in a display case? Where? A shop? There has to be no
guessing at the money involved.

It's a personal gun of a LGS owner, who has it in a display case with a bunch of really nice curios and rare guns that aren't for sale. I asked the sales person about it, he wasn't allowed to open the case for me to inspect the gun, and told me it wasn't for sale. I know the owners, and got a call that he'd be willing to sell it to me, but haven't heard a price yet or gone any further.

I'd forgotten about the chamber throat issue, but in recollection heard it didn't make all that much difference, as the forcing cone is what directs the bullet into the rifling. If your throats measured .458, Pizza Bob, and they are too big, what is the proper dimension range for them? My guess would be .450-.452, since .452 is the bullet diameter for a jacketed bullet.

 

[Gunhacker]

According to Roy Jinks, they should be between .454 and .455".

I'm not sure exactly how the throats affect accuracy, but I can tell you that my 25-5 would not group worth anything, until I started using hard cast bullets sized at .454", which I order from Badman Bullets in Oregon, since I do not cast.

 

[BBrandt]

Long time bullet caster, former mold maker, and cast bullets designer. The forcing cone guides the front end of the bullet after it leaves the expanded case and makes it way through the cylinder throat(s). A big throat allows the bullet base to cant as it's driven forward under high pressure. Jacketed bullets, being considerably harder than cast bullets, can fight the tendency to slump and distort the bullet base out of square with bullet's axis. Still can happen, but to a lesser extent. When the out of square bullet base exists the muzzle crown powder gases escape to one side early which causes a wobble in flight and poor accuracy.

You can also get gas blowby around the cast bullet as it passes through a big throat. You usually see leading around and inside the forcing cone which doesn't help accuracy. Ideally cylinder throats are 0.0005 to maybe 0.0020" larger than the barrel's groove diameter. The chamber diameters can also be excessive which doesn't help matters either.

The problem with 45 Colt dimensions are because it originally was a black powder round and dimensions were more generous to deal with fouling. Holy black explodes rather than burn like smokeless powder. When a soft lead bullet is driven with BP, the bullet base is bumped up in size to fill the larger dimensions. When things transistioned to smokless many cast bullet designs incorporated a hollow base which would bump more readily with its pressure curve.

The 45's dimension we're established before SAAMI was around. Tolerances were big and dimensions we're all over the place. It wasn't until the late 20th century that gun makers finally paid attention.

 

[GypsmJim]

I'd forgotten about the chamber throat issue, but in recollection heard it didn't make all that much difference, as the forcing cone is what directs the bullet into the rifling.

Absolutely BAD info. Many of the 25-5s shoot like ****.

Nevertheless, in my case it makes no difference. I don't buy ammo, I cast and load my own. Simple solution.....I now size to 0.454.

The beauty of it all is that my new standard .45 Colt load now works leaps and bounds better in ALL of my other revolvers.

The 25-5, even with all of it's "shortcomings", is now my best tack driver....

 

[JWintergreen]

I will never understand why this gun never reached a higher level of popularity then it did.

Same here. I feel the same way about the half lug .357 L frames. Honestly, I believe that the 25/625 in .45 Colt is big bore perfection. As noted, the early 25-5 revolvers had issues with oversized cylinder throats, which impacted accuracy. I have read that it was Hank Williams Jr. that finally got S&W to address the issue. The 625 Mountain Gun (in .45 Colt) is one of my top choices for guns I would like to see S&W bring back.

 

[Jason Demond]

I've never seen a model 25 that wouldn't shoot, provided you had the right bullets.

As pointed out. The -3s had the short cylinder, and the -5s had the longer cylinder. The larger throats were SAAMI spec at the times both guns were made. With the -3s you are limited on bullet weights you can shoot, but with both you really need that oversized bullet to make the guns shoot accurately.

I like the guns, but if you are not into reloading. There really isn't a lot of point getting an older one. You'd be better looking for a newer version with the smaller throats.

 

[jack the toad]

Here’s 3 I currently have...
Top: 25-5 N prefix
Middle: 25-5 ABC123
Bottom: 25-9
I was lucky in that all pin gauge basically the same.

ETA: Correct typo

 

[Hair Trigger]

I've never seen a model 25 that wouldn't shoot, provided you had the right bullets.

I like the guns, but if you are not into reloading. There really isn't a lot of point getting an older one. You'd be better looking for a newer version with the smaller throats.

I reload, although casting would be a new skill. I load mostly using Hornady's data, which is pretty limited on the .45 Colt. They divide it into revolver loads and higher pressure loads for the Thompson Contender and Ruger Blackhawk. Their revolver loads are said to be safe for older revolvers, the MV for a 250 grain XTP is only 850 fps, although their 200 grain SWC goes to about 1100 fps. I'd like to find some load data for the 240 grain XTP bullet, which is only given for the Contender. Any load data like that to give about 950-1000 fps?

I specifically want one of the older (1970's) guns, as all my other S&W collection is from that period. With the .45 Colt, I'd have the "Big 3" of S&W's revolvers in the 40+ caliber range: .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt.

 

[Muley Gil]

My 4" blue M25-5, which shipped in May 1980, is stamped "45 COLT CTG." Luckily, mine has the normal sized cylinder throats that "catch" a .452 jacketed bullet when dropped into the chambers.

 

[steelslaver]

18 gr of 2400 should get you right there. I uses a touch more (18.5) behind a 255 lead SWC. I am 45 colt fan. While I don't believe they need to be magnums to be serious big bore medicine, I also do not believe a modern Smith should be struck at 14,000psi loads made for the older guns. 25,000 psi is a much more realistic pressure limit. The 25s handle that pressure form 45acp+p all day long with the same cylinder walls and share the same frame as a model 29 which runs higher.

I also have quit using jacket bullets in 45 colt. When you start out with a big heavy bullet with a large flat face you do not need expansion or high velocity. A 255gr bullet will kill an elk just fine at 100yds. The trajectory improvement of a 44mag over a 1000fps 45 just isn't that great either. I content that anything hit with a 900fps 255 gr .452 slug won't be any less dead than one hit with a 1300fps 240gr .429 bullet.

My cure for guns with oversized cylinder throats is ream a 44 mag cylinder to 45 colt with .452 throats. You can even have a recessed cylinder if you uses a recessed 44 mag cylinder. I just picked another one of those up off Ebay for just $64 with the ejector rod.

MY favorite. The ultra rare pinned and recessed 5" 25-5 in 45 colt

 

[Drm50]

I have a few m25s in 45Colt and 45acp. I shoot either wadcutters or 255RnFp cast in all of them. I’ve a 25-5 in 83/8” that is tack driver with cast. Not so much with jackets.

 

[Hair Trigger]

I also do not believe a modern Smith should be struck at 14,000psi loads made for the older guns. 25,000 psi is a much more realistic pressure limit. The 25s handle that pressure form 45acp+p all day long with the same cylinder walls and share the same frame as a model 29 which runs higher.

This was my thought as well; if you can shoot .45 Auto loads from the gun (with the correct cylinder), it would stand to reason the .45 Colt gun could withstand a load with as much pressure. Hornady's load data is for older guns like SAA's from the turn of the century, but they don't mention loads for the S&W. I'm sure their Ruger and T/C loads are a bit too hot for the M25, however.

Hoping I'll find out more about it today, maybe even close the deal.

 

[SS336]

I have a M25-5 from the late 70’s. It has the larger throats, but I reload and it has not been a problem. Like GypsmJim said, cast bullets at .454 does the trick.
Even with standard cast 255gr bullets mine is minute of bowling pin at 18 yards. It is a great cartridge in the N-frame, if you could by it reasonably, I would not hesitate.
Here is my 6” 25-5.

 

[Greyman50]

Consider myself very fortunate to have a 60’s 25-2 that shoots as well or better than my match 1911 A-1 ( military armorer build) Shot 50 rnds of older Win. Match last week, not quite as good a group as with 201 grn. Keith type cast bullets. Put pair of Houge grips on it couple weeks ago which is much better. The 25 is becoming my favorite to shoot, and I’m a long time 1911 guy.