Testing Handloads at the range

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forestswin

forestswin

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I need some help and advise! Wearing my barrel out trying to find a accurate target load. I just started handloading for my S&W 686 SS 6". I have been following the books on how to develop loads, working up from minimum loads. I just can't seem to get good groupings at the range. I mounted a 2x20 handgun scope and have been testing at 25 yards.

I can generally keep the holes in 3" or 4" diameters - but one is at 3 o'clock another at 7, etc. So I haven't been able to interpret the results as a good load or not.

I've tried several bench rest techniques. The bench rest stands haven't worked - they seem too high - bringing my arms up above the table - too much movement for testing a load - I think I can shoot better standing - but that doesn't give me consistant groups either - One technique that I can get to work, (good groups 1"-2" for many load combinations) at 30 feet is a 2 handed hold, support hand on bottom resting on a blanket laid flat, along with both arms, pushing just the trigger guard into a sandbag for some windage stability. When I move out to 25 yards with that hold - its back to the 3"-4" scatter. I've been using an "give-away" Lee 1000 progressive press, with Lee dies, Bullseye & Unique powders. Hornady XTP HP 110, 125, 140 grain bullets and Laser-Cast 158 grain SWC using all CCI 500 primers. I do not load progressive. I clean my brass, brush inside the case then on the press to de-cap and re-size. Then off the press. I clean out the primer hole and sort casings by manufacturer and case length. Back onto the press - prime, expand case, add powder thru die, measure each charge with Lyman 1500 XP - then seat the bullet so roll crimp is halfway or a little higher into the cannellure for the Hornady's or just below the head for the SWC's.

This gun is supposed to be very accurate. I think the loads are okay. I'd like some advice on how shoot the gun at the range for testing loads.
 
First of all if you are reloading with lead bullets you would need everal lifetimes to wear out the barrel.
I obtain a good grip by resting the butt of the gun on sandbags and using a firm two handed hold. I believe your accuracy issues are technique related rather than the quality of the ammo.
 
With a scope at 30 feet from a bench I would expect a 1 hole cloverleaf group, my 4" 586 in SA mode will put 6 bullets all in one ragged hole with open sights at that range from a solid bench as long as do my part

Is your barrel is clean and lead free? Any bulges, rough spots, or cracks?
Is the muzzle crown in good shape, smooth and nick free?
Is the forcing cone smooth and clean?
Is the timing and cylinder gap good? Are you shaving lead?
Is the scope mount tight and does the scope keeps its zero?

Assuming everything checks out,you might want to try some good factory .38 midrange wadcutters just to make sure it's not your loads. You may also want to have another shooter tried to print a few groups to see if they get the same results.
 
I use a two handed hold, and prefer to rest my wrists on the sand bags rather than the butt of the gun. My hands and the butt of the gun hang over the front of the bags. I try to never allow any part of the gun to touch the sandbags.

I agree with T-squared, you accuracy issues are a result of your technique. You might want to consider buying a box of factory ammunition of the same bullet weight, and try shooting several 5 shot groups. The factory ammo should be fairly accurate, so your groups will reflect your technique rather than the accuracy of the ammunition. Once your groups become consistent, you are then ready to test the accuracy of your reloads.
 
Have you tried to analyze your bullet impacts using the target guide?
link

How consistent is your sight picture when the trigger breaks? I would suggest you focus on your rest and hold rather than loading.
 
Use a few sand bags to get a good solid rest, don't support the barrel but I don't see anything wrong with resting the butt and/or trigger guard on a bag. You don't want movement from your grip.

o- 7-10 yds is good to start with. Don't move to 25 until you have narrowed it down to two or three good loads.

o- Shoot multiple 5-shot groups to see if the size/location is repeatable.
o- You will always get flyers - get used to it.
o- Do a search for a program called On-Target - use it to help you analyze your groups if you can scan your targets.
o- Use .3 gr load increments to start and .1 as you get close to max
o- Use copper plated or jacketed bullets or slug your throats and use the proper size lead.
o- You doing all the right things for case prep so don't focus there, as others have said it's probably in your shooting technique. If you are fairly new to shooting, get yourself a 22 and put a lot of lead downrange practicing different styles until you find what works for your.
o- Shoot a variety of factory loads to see which are accurate for your gun then try to duplicate those, then go on to new territory once you have a base line

stick with it, it gets better
hope this helps
 
Settle on one bullet weight, I'd go with the 158 gr. Get an ammo can and put a sandbag on it, rest your wrists on the sandbag. Shoot in single action and move your targets to 7 or 10 yards till you get the scope dialed in.
 
forestswin said:
I can generally keep the holes in 3" or 4" diameters - but one is at 3 o'clock another at 7, etc. So I haven't been able to interpret the results as a good load or not.
Click to expand...

Something that aggravated me when I started hand loading was becoming "OK" with groups that aren't centered on the bull's eye.

For now, while you're working on loads, don't pay any attention at all to where on paper your groups are. Just focus on the quality of each group.

Once you have the best group, you can use your adjustable sights to put that group in the bull's eye.
 
First of all, let me thank you all for your time and for sharing your knowledge and advice. It means a lot to a new guy like me. Cheers to you all!

TSQUARED: my first response to my first post - you've got that spot. I am shooting both hard lead and jacketed hollow points. Actually that remark was in a little bit of despair. Every now and then - I think I'm going to find the right load just as I wear this thing out.

I know this is getting picky, but I think you're correct about my technique and this is probably where I need to focus. I've been trying all kind of holds - and all kind of resting positions - and am finding out that with all of these different positions the problem arises of not being able to compare test firings. With your two handed hold - the butt is on the sandbags - the butts not on your support hand? I have been keeping my support hand low and somewhat under the grip, resting my hand on the sandbag. Do you push with your shooting hand and pull with your support hand to resist recoil?

Smith357: 1 big hole is what I have been expecting, especially from this 686. Everything looks fine with the gun, its only about a year old. I did have to clean out lead with Choreboy and Shooter's Choice when I first started reloading a few months back. I wondered about the timing - so I shot 5 shots from each cylinder into each of six targets using store bought Rem. 357 125g JSP - none of the cylinders were that far off from the POA - actually the groupings I got from that test were pretty good - must have used a consistent hold that day. Scope is tight - I'll take it to a gunsmith and have him check it out. Haven't seen any factory WC's in the stores - I see Winchester makes one for sale at Natchez and Buffalo Bore for sale at Cabela's - any recommendations? (buying store bought is going to hurt some $ - since I started reloading)

wantmoresmiths: I'll try TSQUARED's method and yours and see what works best for me. I do think you two are correct - I haven't been using the same holds over time. I'll also bite the bullet and buy some more factory rounds. Do you try to resist the recoil with other than just a firm grip?

jepp2: no - thanks - great link - I think I've been guilty of all of them, except trigger pull and sight picture - I've worked on those - scope cross hairs right on center and 686 SA trigger is great - again I'm hearing you all - rest and hold technique!

125JHP: I haven't been letting any part of the gun, except the trigger guard touch anything. I think my problem is the hold. thanks for your points, I'll use each one - but why not six-shot groups with a revolver? I am not new to shooting, mostly rifles and shot guns in the past - but my first pistol was a High Standard Victor - I must have shot 10000 rounds thru that this past year and can keep 20 rounds in a 2 inch circle at 25 yards - but I must say this 357 is a completely different animal - thanks for the encouragement - AND YES THIS HELPS QUITE A BIT

Titegroups: I'd love to buy a Ransom rest - they are looking more affordable - the more I shoot!

hawgleg: I agree - 158 g is the one I've wanted to shoot. With the ammo can and sandbag - that gets kind of high doesn't it? the 2 issues I've had with bench rests is they seem too high for me to keep a steady hold and they are designed for the barrel touching a support - I do better freehand then high rests. Elbows on bench? I am also going to try the wrists on sandbag like you and wantmoresmiths suggest and butt on bag like TSQUARED suggests - to see which works best for me

WNC Seabee: glad to know it aggravates other's too - but its just because I care - or serious about getting this right. I'd love to see 6 bullets all together anywhere on the target, but what I am shooting is one on the left side of the 8 ring and one on the far right side of the 8 ring and top & bottom - 3- 4 inches away from each other kind of centered on the x-ring

With the S&W 686 6inch, can there be that much difference between guns that everyone has to start at starting load and work their way up? This is a high quality firearm - I would think there has to be at least one target load for say a 158g LSWC that would be accurate (25-100 yards) for all new 686's and that shouldn't be getting into high pressure ranges? Is there such a load?
 
Forestswin,
When you say you can keep shots in 2" at 25 yards with your HS Victor, is this rested, or offhand? If rested, it demonstrates your technique is the problem. The Victor should do about 1" at 50 yards rested.
 
There are several aspects to accurate loads.
1. The components; (powder, primer, bullet).
2. The technique of assembly of the ammo.
3. The method of shooting.

I will assume you are wanting to build a couple types of loads, one for plinking, one for hunting or defense. Concentrate on one at a time. Some powders do not measure accurately, and that affects accuracy. Do you weigh every charge or just throw the charge once you have adjusted the measure? My standard is no more than 1/2 of .1 grain of powder differential. Bulky powders like Unique are well known for not measuring well, while ball powders like 231 will consistently drop the same amount every time. Powders for mild plinking loads will not work well for magnum loads and vice versa. Primer seating must be consistent, If all primers are not seated fully and consistently, you will get uneven ignition and inconsistent accuracy. Seating depth of the bullet can make a difference in accuracy, as it affects internal case capacity and that will also affect pressure and accuracy, fully seating all rounds the same depth is necessary, if you are not aware of it, you can "short stroke" the seating and result in different seating depth's. Finding the "right" seating depth is part of developing the load.

Some powders are just not well suited for particular calibers. Some powders require magnum primers.

There are many posts on accuracy loads for .357 and .38 on the forum, or many loading manuals will indicate the "most accurate" powder for a particular caliber. Use one of these powders.

When shooting for groups, you have to use a "rest" of some type. A sandbag is universally accepted as the best type of rest, but you must not rest the barrel on the bag, only the frame/trigger guard. Shoot only single action and pay particular attention you your trigger pull so as to not move the gun, and the consistency of your sight picture. If it is possible, try and use a Ransom rest. My club bought one many years ago, and all members use it, the only stipulation is if it needs a new grip adapter for a different make pistol the user must buy it and it them belongs to the club for all to use.

There could be problems like a bad crowning of your particular revolver or it could have been damaged. Investigate all possibilities.

Good luck, loading your own ammo is fun, and lets you shoot a lot more, and you can actually make better ammo than you can buy.
 
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If you shoot undersize lead bullets then shoot jacketed through a leaded barrel, accuracy will suffer (I'm not one who believes that shooting jacketed ammo after lead will clean the bbl.). Lead bullets will shoot best if sized to the same size as the cylinder throats.

I found that when working up a load for my .357, most accuracy comes from loads on the lighter side, not the wrist breakers...
 
davekb, thanks for your thoughts
2" group offhand at 25 yards - I know the gun will do better than I can shoot it - I did sight in on sandbag on bench at 25 yards and yes it was just one hole - since then I've been practicing with Victor offhand - actually I haven't tried 50 yards or 100 yards yet - I mentioned my 22 because member 125JHP suggested that I get a 22 and put a lot of lead downrange - my point here is that I've done that and that gun did not give me any trouble on the sandbag, nor offhand - I am still doing a lot of practice with it using CCI STD velocity ammo - but my 686 shooting isn't progressing the same way - from reading the responses and thinking back - I am sure its my technique (grip, bench rest, etc.) Victor fits better in my hands - trigger finger lines up perfect, little recoil actually everyone who shoots it loves it - they all do well - its like it shoots homing bullets. so as you and others say - I need to get my shooting technique down with this 686 before I try to develop accurate loads.
 
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One other thing that hasn't been mentioned is using a chronograph. I find you can quickly narrow down the better loads by checking their standard deviation. A load that stays in the teens or less most likely will print pretty good, where one that runs 30-40fps or more is going to string out on you and isn't worth pursuing. As a general rule my 686s' shoot good with any load that runs consistant over the chrono.
 
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One other thing, is the grip. Your last post led me to believe the grips of the HS Victor fit you great, but possibly the 686 grips don't fit. An ill fitting grip can be counter-productive to accuracy.
 
H Richard - thanks for all your thoughts - I'll save them for when I start reloading again - I need to work on my shooting technique on a rest for awhile - with factory ammo - so when I do reload I can tell whether I have a good load or not - but to answer your questions...
I tested a measure and I wasn't getting enough consistency so I didn't think it was accurate enough for developing loads - so I do measure every charge on a Lyman 1500 XP digital scale and dump with a funnel thru the expanding die - I also clean every primer hole - and they all looked like there seated the same - a few thousands below the case - and I sort cases by length and for each test load use the same length and adjust the seating die for each length so I can see just a little of the cannelure of the Hornady XTP's and seat to just under the rim of the SWC's.

any thoughts on shooting on a rest technique - is most welcome
 
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H Richard - the 686 came with a Hogue grip - I can get a good tight grip with it - but I have long fingers - trigger finger bends at knuckle not tip - with the Victor it just bends at the tip - it has a longer reach than the 686
 
handgunner 356
a chronograph is on my list - I can see I am going to need it

others here suggested I get factory ammo to get technique down - since you shoot a 686 - I think I'm making good ammo - I just can't shoot it in tight groups yet- is there a basic load I can make that would be similar to a "design load" for this particular handgun? that I can work on technique with - its really gonna hurt to buy all that ammo at the store!
 
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mikld - I started handloading Hornady XTP JHP - then switched to Laser-Cast 158 SWC's - I'd like to stay with them for awhile - I've been loading low to mid 38 special loads and using 357 cases - main goal is to find a load and make a bunch of it - to practice target shooting at 25 yards
 
If the Hogue's are too small for your grip, try a fuller grip and get the trigger position correct. I have short fingers and I use hogue's, but my trigger finger just correctly reach's the trigger.
SW6862.jpg
 
As others have suggested your issue is most likely due to your technique.

The first issue that you'll have to deal with is that long barrel. People always seem to assume that a long barrel will be easier to shoot accurately. I used to think the same, UNTIL I purchased a 6 1/2 inch model 610. The problem with longer barrels is the increase in the TIME that the bullet spends transitting the barrel. ANY variation in recoil management while the bullet is transitting the barrel WILL result in "thrown shots". For me gaining the skills required to manage the recoil consistently with my 6 1/2 inch 610 was a 2 year oddessy. The bad news is that there aren't any short cuts, you only gain these skills by shooting. Good news is that the effort will result in your becoming a better handgun shooter.

Second there is the technique for shooting from a rest. I've found from experience that it is absolutely critical that NOTHING touch the barrel while the bullet is transitting it. One piece revolver barrels do "ring" in response to the bullet passing through it. If you don't make certain that barrel doesn't contact anything you will basically see your group sizes increase by a factor or 2 or 3. What I've found to work best for me is to use the same 2 handed grip as I use when shooting offhand. Then I plant the heels of those hands on a good firm sandbag. I've found that this allows me to use the same recoil management as when shooting offhand. As a result there is no change in the POI when shooting from a rest or offhand.

I would suggest that you set asside any load development until you can consitently and predictably shoot groups in the 2-2.5 inch range at 25 yards. Your 686 should be mechanically capable of yielding group sizes in this range with just about any quality ammunition you load it with. As for specific load ballistics to use for practice, I've found that a 130 grain bullet loaded to 800-850 fps to be a good choice for intensive practice. Yeah, it is mild, however when you are trying to improve your basic skill set I've found it to be very detrimental to shoot heavy hitting loads that can induce flinching.
 
scooter thanks again for your advice- you answered a similar question for me on the scope mount post - you know I have actually taken a mug of coffee to the range - another change to make - oh well! and the knowledge that you took 8 weeks of practice for 1" holes at 50 yards really helps - its believable and doable for hard heads who don't quit
 
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