Texas DPS ditches M&P and returns to SIG

[4506517]

I know for a FACT that one of the most influential factors in my agency was the great deal we got on our M&Ps. If I'm not mistaken we swapped out old for new one for one. My understanding was the old pistols (4566) went back for refurb then out onto the commercial market.

A note about rectifying problems. We have had a nightmare with the magazines. The followers would stop midway up the mag body. They would feed 4-5 rounds then stop. You could literally pour the remaining rounds outs. When the springs were removed they looked like pretzels. We tried getting them replaced. We were told due to "demand" we would have to wait. I waited over two months..... Long enough, in fact, for another of my magazines to fail. For awhile the only operational mag I had was the one in the gun. I understand S&W has to make a profit and commercial sales is where the money is at......however, to leave a contract LE customer hanging because you don't have magazine springs? Really?

I understand brand loyalty. No one wants to think they picked a loser or that what they like isn't everything they imagined. Anytime I ever talk about our issues with the M&P, all the naysayers tell me I'm wrong or that I don't know what I'm talking about. Even a couple of comments here reflect that. Fact is we have had and continue to have issues with the M&P. Other agencies in my area have also. Fact is, it is scary to have to carry a pistol you don't trust.

In don't have a choice....I HAVE to carry this thing.

 

[Badkarma 1]

Concerning the ammo: My son said that they were shooting their duty ammo in the M&P's and I assume the Sig's as well. I didn't ask and he didn't tell me what brand the ammo was and I forgot the grain. It was either 130 something or 140 something HP's. I'll talk to him this weekend and find out.

Scuttlebutt says its the Speer 147gr. Gold Dot. FBI is currently issuing 147gr. Winchester bonded.
Now before the. "+P+ crowd" starts up, it shouod be noted that NYPD has yet to ok the M&P for issue due to problems with said M&P handling their load the Speer 124gr.+P Gold Dot.

One way or another it will come out in the wash. And SIGs of late do have their problems to. But as Mr. Bruce Gray says " Get some damn grease"
Dale

 

[SoCalDep]

A note about rectifying problems. We have had a nightmare with the magazines. The followers would stop midway up the mag body. They would feed 4-5 rounds then stop. You could literally pour the remaining rounds outs. When the springs were removed they looked like pretzels. We tried getting them replaced. We were told due to "demand" we would have to wait. I waited over two months..... Long enough, in fact, for another of my magazines to fail. For awhile the only operational mag I had was the one in the gun. I understand S&W has to make a profit and commercial sales is where the money is at......however, to leave a contract LE customer hanging because you don't have magazine springs? Really?

I've seen the problem you describe. It seems to be the follower catching on the mag catch hole.

I also know that in the thousands of magazines issued by my agency it is an extremely small percentage that suffers from this issue.

What I don't understand is how some people act as if there are no problems whatsoever, while at the same time, others claim that every firearm their agency issues is defective. I think the truth is probably somewhere in between.

I can say I've seen failures in multiple major manufacturers to include Glock, Sig, S&W, Beretta and HK. Use them enough, and in big enough numbers, and the failure points will be identified. There's not one brand out there that doesn't have failure points.

That said, the M&P is one of the most reliable pistols I've ever seen. I've personally abused multiple guns, my partners have abused several more, and I get the opportunity to see hundreds to thousands of them each year being used by in-service personnel and recruits. If it didn't work I wouldn't carry it because I have multiple other guns I could use which are approved.

 

[Rastoff]

As a SouthPaw who has owned and carried SIGs since 1987, I have to disagree with that...

Bill

Ok, I'm always up for learning. School me up, how do you operate the slide lock with your left hand? I can see how, and have done it myself, the decocker can be operated with my trigger finger, but the slide lock is too far back for me.

 

[silversport]

you have me on that issue if that's the style of release you choose...I have used the slingshot method for about 25 years...

I bought the SIG because it was more left hand friendly than many of the pistols available in 1987...

I would agree with your statement more with some current offerings on the market today but those same offerings add girth to have slide release/locks on the right side for us SouthPaws...

compared to pistols with a left side only thumb safety (many 1911s) the SIG isn't difficult to manipulate...

if you are a SouthPaw do you find SIGs require you to be right handed???...really???...I'm curious as I suspect it is just getting used to manipulating controls which we need to do for so many handguns...

thank you for your Service.

Bill

 

[Doug M.]

Most if not all major manufacturers are sloppy or worse with QC. It's appalling. The 1st and 2nd generation 9mm Glocks got them a great reputation, but now some of their models are so bad I know of a police Lt. who is known as the "Glock Gremlin Guru". The issues with their .40s and lights (and sometimes without) were well known 6-7 years ago and are still not consistently fixed. QC at Sig was a HUGE problem for several years (I had a special order 239 that was so messed up THE DEALER rejected it and told me without even asking what I wanted to do). HK was infamous for stupid stuff and their service motto was described by friends as "you suck and we hate you"; I experienced it with a duty weapon that took forever to come in. Others in my agency had so much trouble with their orders that they did consumer fraud complaints with the State AG's office. The full sized 9mm M&Ps have had serious barrel/slide problems resulting in substandard accuracy at 25+ yards.

Even worse, instead of being responsive, the manufacturers have been generally intransigent, and some have been utterly abusive. One manufacturer's reps had to be trespassed from a large agency police academy due to their behavior, including threatening litigation if the agency released the evaluation results (which they did to more than one agency, and I dare 'em to try that stuff with people who know their way around a courtroom; among other problems, those evals are public record and can't be kept secret in most states).

I'd like to have the percussive maintenance contract for some of the senior management at these places.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

do any of you work for S&W or are we all here just handgun M&P nuts...

Actually, I do not yet own an M&P pistol. I'm still quite happy with my 3rd Gen S&Ws. (Assuming it's a pistol day; most days are revolver days.) The only quality, polymer pistol I have thus far allowed myself is a 9mm SIG SP-2022. However, this was quite an enlightening and interesting discussion, which is why I joined in.

***GRJ***

 

[Bullet Bob]

"Does anyone really believe that the M-16 was the best semi-auto rifle available or that the M92 Beretta was the best semi-auto pistol that could be had? "

Well, I do, but I've never claimed to be an expert. I am, however, someone

 

[Rastoff]

you have me on that issue if that's the style of release you choose...I have used the slingshot method for about 25 years...

Of course the sling shot method of slide release is an ambidextrous move. However, I wasn't talking about releasing the slide, I was talking about locking it back. If you have to lock the slide back, how do you do it as a lefty?

compared to pistols with a left side only thumb safety (many 1911s) the SIG isn't difficult to manipulate...

True, but a right side safety can be added to a 1911. Not so with the SIG.

Anything can be learned to be manipulated. I just find the SIG P series of guns to be the most cumbersome for a lefty. Sure, it can be done. It's just a lot more difficult than many other guns.

Don't get me wrong, SIG makes a great gun. They are super tough and reliable. They just aren't lefty friendly.

 

[silversport]

Ok...but I don't find anyone's design to be perfect...I don't find the ability to manually lock the slide back without switching hands high on my must have list...

...my experience just differs from yours regarding SIGs...cheers.

Bill

 

[tipoc]

Well going back to the original point of the thread..

A year or more ago the word went out that the Texas DPS was adopting the M&P and leaving behind the .357 Sig round and their former guns. Seems that announcement was premature.

If we take as good coin the report from "The Truth About Guns" then it seems that the DPS has not yet adopted the M&P but is still "testing" it or that it is in trials. It sounds like the formal adoption has been delayed and not terminated.

So most officers there are still carrying the Sigs (if they carried those to begin with, not all did it seems) as the M&P is being transitioned into. That transition has been delayed a bit while issues are worked out.

Now that's what I take from it. But with a grain of salt. I note that the "Truth about guns" article does not name a source or an official statement from the Texas DPS. It sounds like they do when you read it but all they actually say is "the man himself". What man? I wonder if I'm supposed to know his name.

tipoc

 

[greg_r]

The North Carolina SHP was looking to replace their M&P pistols also. They cited ejection problems. I do not know what the outcome was. I do know S&W was working With them to resolve ite issue. If they stayed with S&W it was going to be a pistol for pistol swap. The SHP would have to budget for the purchase of another brand. They are going to stay with the 357 Sig round regardless.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Dammit!!!! Anyone want to buy my M&P9?????

 

[Harrison]

I am not surprised. I briefly owned two M&Ps the 9 was back to S&W twice with multiple problems, the 45 once. I am back to my reliable Glock 9s and 1911 45s. Unlike many eastern large city PDs, many recruits to Texas DPS have prior experience shooting handguns.

 

[fdw]

I am not surprised. I briefly owned two M&Ps the 9 was back to S&W twice with multiple problems, the 45 once. I am back to my reliable Glock 9s and 1911 45s. Unlike many eastern large city PDs, many recruits to Texas DPS have prior experience shooting handguns.

For every problem, thousands are problem free, I'll go ahead and cancel your 9 problem with my trouble free 9

can someone please cancel his 45 problem?

 

[DocSunShine]

I am not surprised. I briefly owned two M&Ps the 9 was back to S&W twice with multiple problems, the 45 once. I am back to my reliable Glock 9s and 1911 45s. Unlike many eastern large city PDs, many recruits to Texas DPS have prior experience shooting handguns.

And yet you are on an M&P forum... Talking amongst many of us who have had zero issues with are M&Ps, hmmmmm.....

 

[Eugene 9mm]

Ain't that the truth. That's about what I shoot in a slow month. Oh and BTW I haven't experienced any problems with my M&P9 and I go through more ammo in a year then most officers go through in a career.

I've only been shooting since September 2009, and I can only afford so much ammo a month! I shoot about 200-300 rounds per visit, and try to go once a month, so I'm guessing I'm up to about 1600-200 total rounds fired so far.

I'd fire a lot more if it wasn't so hard to get 22LR...

 

[Edmo]

Well that's just GREAT!!!

Now my warranty replacement will take forever because they are processing all of those Texas DPS gun returns...

Edmo

 

[M29since14]

For every problem, thousands are problem free, I'll go ahead and cancel your 9 problem with my trouble free 9

can someone please cancel his 45 problem?

Yes, I will. My .45 runs like a truck and is also pretty darned accurate. No reason not to trust it so far.

 

[Rastoff]

I've only been shooting since September 2009, and I can only afford so much ammo a month! I shoot about 200-300 rounds per visit, and try to go once a month, so I'm guessing I'm up to about 1600-200 total rounds fired so far.

That must be that new math. If you went once a month since 2009 and shot 250 rounds each time, that's 13,500 rounds. Maybe you don't get out every month?

On a more serious note, your practice would be more effective if you went more often and shot less each time. 50 rounds a week is more effective than 200 rounds once a month. In any shooting session, a point is reached where the shooter is just hammering rounds. No real improvement is seen at that point.