Texas DPS ditches M&P and returns to SIG

[triaxle]

I think they lit a fire under Sig to get what they wanted for some reason . and just used a new class to do it . Most MP run good .

 

[shawn mccarver]

Well, here is a link to an article in The Texas Tribune dated April 17, 2014 related to this issue:

DPS Suspends Use of New Handgun Over "Concerns" | The Texas Tribune

From the article:

"The agency decided to halt the use of the new handguns after a couple of the weapons experienced slight movement of less than 10 microns after repeated firing of about 3,000 rounds, Vinger said. A micron is one-millionth of a meter. Movement in a gun could affect accuracy. There were also bullet "feeding and ejection" issues. None of the performance issues resulted in any injuries. And so far, DPS has not been able to replicate these issues in subsequent testing, Vinger said."

The whole article is worth reading as in it, you find out that there were 114 recruits in the class, that S&W traded 120 M&P9s for 120 of DPS' SIG pistols, and that no money changed hands.

The news article also interviewed one Leghorn, from The Truth About Guns, you seem to get the sense that the dramatic headline in that internet site may have been a little over dramatic. Leghorn, as quoted in the news article, offers up possible reasons for problems, including two that are not attributable to the pistol.

By the way, if you can figure out the exact problem that these people are trying to describe in the above quote about movement of the gun less than 10 microns, I would be interested in hearing it. LOL

 

[tipoc]

"movement of less than 10 microns". Well that means movement of less than .00039" or less than 1/2 thousandths of an inch.

.00035" would be 9 microns.

Folks in Texas are picky it seems. Depending on where the "movement" is of course.

At any rate it seems not a whole lot of a story. A lot of hat and we search for the cattle.

This seems a lot like the "news" at TMZ. Something that is close to a fact and a whole lot of speculation about it.

Here are the facts. Texas DPS was using the M&P for training with new recruits. Some issues came up so they went back to the Sigs they had on hand till the issues are resolved. No hard facts on the "issues" just references to microns and speculation. Maybe we'll find out in a month or so. Maybe we won't.

tipoc

 

[shawn mccarver]

"movement of less than 10 microns". Well that means movement of less than .00039" or less than 1/2 thousandths of an inch.

.00035" would be 9 microns.

I understand the meaning of the term micron.

I was asking not what a micron is, but if anyone knew exactly WHAT moved "less than 10 microns" and how that might be a problem requiring that they drop the weapon from the current recruit class.

Now that I am on that, I am wondering how they discovered this "large" movement, and exactly HOW they measured it. LOL.

 

[Doug M.]

I'm no engineer, so I may be clueless, but I am not thinking of anything in a pistol where that amount of change would make any real difference. I am also wondering if that would be measurable, and if there is any place that such a difference would not be within normal (tight/good) manufacturing tolerances.

That said - feeding and ejection issues are not acceptable. Ever. I would be very concerned if an (unmaintained other than lube) service pistol would not go at least 500 and preferably 1000 consecutive rounds of duty ammo without a malfunction. (And yes, I have tested pistols to that standard and had them pass.)

 

[Rastoff]

Well, 10 microns is measurable, but not significant to any part of an M&P.

 

[tipoc]

The spokesperson for DPS, Tom Vinger said...

"The agency decided to halt the use of the new handguns after a couple of the weapons experienced slight movement of less than 10 microns after repeated firing of about 3,000 rounds, Vinger said. A micron is one-millionth of a meter. Movement in a gun could affect accuracy. There were also bullet "feeding and ejection" issues. None of the performance issues resulted in any injuries. And so far, DPS has not been able to replicate these issues in subsequent testing, Vinger said."

So a slight movement of less than .0005" was measured somewhere on the guns or on a gun, after 3,000 rounds were fired. They don't say where on the gun. Barrel lock up? Barrel to slide fit?

There were also "bullet feeding and ejection issues" but in further testing they could not replicate the "issues". This means it happened but they did not see it happen again and could not get it to repeat.

This was all reported after the website "The Truth About Guns" made the "issue" public and the Texas Tribune picked it up and looked into it.

So not a lot of info. Speculate on!

We'll see what it means in a few weeks or months.

Seems though that the reports of the DPS "adopting" the M&P were premature some. Makes me skeptical of the reports of them dropping it as well.

tipoc

 

[N.P.E.S.]

Listen here fanboy. I've seen everything he mentioned and then some. M&P wasn't even on the list of considerations for my department in Illinois. During testing the M&P 40s outpaced Glock, Sig and Beretta in FTE issues by a very large margin. Simply put, it's not something you can rely on. I know you live, eat and breathe S&W, and if you can't see that there are issues, then it's too bad.

No doubt, your laundry list of every single M&P related issue that you have ever heard about, read about or possibly even experienced first hand is considerably longer. But until we get more details from those in a position to share such information, there is no way to say if any of the items you posted here are even relevant as it relates specifically to the Texas DPS news. I think it's also fair to note that your list doesn't reflect the fact that many of the older issues mentioned have already been addressed by one of the many S&W rolling engineering changes or QC fixes, as they continue to address known problems and respond to their end users.

I did likewise hear the same rumors as L Pete: "FTF, FTE, and magazine lip problems", but have yet to see those rumors confirmed as actual mechanical problems vs. training issues related to the DPS recruits using these test pistols (see below). I have begun to wonder if the issue might be related to the bad followers (search this forum for details) that an OEM supplier recently provided for new production M&P 9mm mags, while they were struggling to catch up on backordered mags that were a result of panicked buyers looking to stockpile highcap mags. I received two of these bad follower mags from Midway during roughly the same time period as the testing. S&W is addressing the problem. Would have been fun to see how well an M&P chambered in .357Sig and using the same DPS issued ammo would have worked compared to their current Sigs.

There was a very recent article from Nick Leghorn at The Truth About Guns wherein he quoted the highest ranked Texas DPS source:

"As you are aware I approved the adoption of the Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm as the Department's service handgun beginning with Recruit School A14. However, we have been experiencing malfunctions during Recruit School firearms training, which is unacceptable, and I have suspended the transition to the Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm.

Even if the manufacturer is able to address our issues over the next week, we cannot afford to risk the extra training time that was added to address transition contingencies. Education, Training and Research will continue to work with the manufacturer on this issue, but today, Trooper Trainees will be issued Sig Sauer 357 handguns, which we have in our inventory as a precaution."

Leghorn summarizes: "But it appears that the latest wave of recruits in training have experienced an "unacceptable" number of issues with the new gun, and the department is rolling back the changeover, moving back to their tried and true SIG SAUER P226 pistols in .357 SIG." To which he adds: "To be fair to S&W, almost every time a major department transitions from one product to another there are problems."

See full article here: Texas DPS Ditches S&W M&P Handguns Over Reliability Issues | The Truth About Guns

Hard not to take note that the M&P pistols were only being issued to new recruits (as best I can tell) and they were being used as the DPS's M&P beta testers. Previously from another source: "Department of Public Safety spokesman Tom Vinger said Smith & Wesson M&P 9 mm handguns will be issued to troopers finishing their training in January. Current troopers will be allowed to carry their .357-caliber SIG Sauer pistols while DPS expands availability of the new handgun."

The M&Ps were adopted as the new department service handgun, yet the transition was conditional based on the results of beta testing with recruits? Hmmm. I do wonder how many pistols were issued for testing? They kept their inventory of Sigs, rather than trade them in, so how committed to making a change were they? I can only speculate based on what I've read and what I understand to be true about the political reality of LE supplier contracts, but I wouldn't think it too great a stretch to believe Sig would continue to lobby to keep the .357Sig round alive and their pistol in DPS duty holsters. Could more free .357Sig ammo and a bunch of new pistols be enough to put the kabosh on an M&P deal, or is it possible the DPS did the recruit beta testing in order to force Sig to 'earn' their business? I don't know either way, but I do know that politics are hard to completely remove from these sort of negotiations.

 

[DocSunShine]

Listen here fanboy. I've seen everything he mentioned and then some. M&P wasn't even on the list of considerations for my department in Illinois. During testing the M&P 40s outpaced Glock, Sig and Beretta in FTE issues by a very large margin. Simply put, it's not something you can rely on. I know you live, eat and breathe S&W, and if you can't see that there are issues, then it's too bad.

I've tried everything to get ANY of my M&Ps to malfunction including intentionally limp wristing (shooting only lightly supporting the gun with my thumb and middle finger one handed) with weak practice ammo to carry ammo and just like my Glock 19 Gen3, the damn things refuse to malfunction. Perhaps the time frame your department tested the M&Ps during it still had growing pains?

Besides my own great experience, along with several family and friends, here is what I take as a clue... I actually listen to the advice of guys who shoot for a living. If the M&P sucked, then why do the big name instructors who put thousands and thousands of rounds down range each year (many with an M&P) and see a wide variety of guns in their classes recommend M&Ps?

 

[SoCalDep]

Listen here fanboy. I've seen everything he mentioned and then some. M&P wasn't even on the list of considerations for my department in Illinois. During testing the M&P 40s outpaced Glock, Sig and Beretta in FTE issues by a very large margin. Simply put, it's not something you can rely on. I know you live, eat and breathe S&W, and if you can't see that there are issues, then it's too bad.

When did you test them?

 

[tipoc]

I've been a machinist for awhile now and I can't recall ever measuring something in a micron.

The Texas DPS could be more advanced than other law enforcement agencies, of course, and require such tight tolerances as measuring in microns affords ya.

Could also be that the 9mm is too small in Texas and a 9000 micron round makes for a surer one shot stop.

If a fella detests the "40 Short and Weak" a 10,170 micron round may light 'em up. Or is it just a puny 10,000 micron pill?

tipoc

 

[Changeling]

Knowing the problems with the pistols how many of you would want your son or daughter going in harms way with one?

Also why are some of you asking "how many defects" have been found? One is to darn many for the police! The pistol is the most important tool in an officers trade, don't you think maybe they would like to depend on what there superiors give them to go into a battle with?

 

[L Pete]

Microns!.......really?

The only thing that I've ever seen measured in microns is filter material....any kind of filter.

I've got to agree with tipoc. I want to meet the person that measured the movement and the instrument used to make the measurement. I'm fairly well acquainted with machinist methodology, and I'm unfamiliar with that statement quoted above.

All in all, if it feels like BS, and if it smells like BS......you know the rest....

 

[Badkarma 1]

I'll tell ya what, I'll find out if its BS or not! I ain't played guinea pig in awhile, so I'll buy a M&P9 and torment the heck out of it, run it like a red headed step child, feed it the nastiest ammo I can find (I still have a bit if that Syrian stuff) and see what happens! Fair enough?
Dale

 

[L Pete]

I'll tell ya what, I'll find out if its BS or not! I ain't played guinea pig in awhile, so I'll buy a M&P9 and torment the heck out of it, run it like a red headed step child, feed it the nastiest ammo I can find (I still have a bit if that Syrian stuff) and see what happens! Fair enough?
Dale

Have fun........

 

[Rastoff]

If the M&P sucked, then why do the big name instructors who put thousands and thousands of rounds down range each year (many with an M&P) and see a wide variety of guns in their classes recommend M&Ps?

You'll have to name these "big name" instructors for me, 'cause I don't know of any. In fact, every good instructor I know, won't recommend a particular model or manufacturer because there are so many good ones out there. They would offer up several so the individual could pick one that they liked.




I've been a Metrologist for a long time. Measurement is something I know about. At the lab I worked in for 18 years, we had the ability to measure as small as .0000001", that's .1 micro inches. 10 microns (about .00039") is an enormous measurement in that lab. Neither is it difficult for the average person if they have a regular micrometer. You see, the average micrometer has a resolution of .0001" so, I can see how they could make the measurement. The question is, what were they measuring?

 

[WR Moore]

Having watched several departments (including mine) transition weapons, I've noticed that the 'solution' to any problems experienced is to blame the hardware. That may or may not have merit.

 

[silversport]

Excellent post and my experience as well...

Bill

 

[Doug M.]

Listen here fanboy. I've seen everything he mentioned and then some. M&P wasn't even on the list of considerations for my department in Illinois. During testing the M&P 40s outpaced Glock, Sig and Beretta in FTE issues by a very large margin. Simply put, it's not something you can rely on. I know you live, eat and breathe S&W, and if you can't see that there are issues, then it's too bad.

*
Interesting. Not doubting your experience, but the M&P40 is well regarded by some pretty serious folks of my acquaintance, and my sources at WSP tell me that the only problem they have had is strikers breaking with heavy dry fire practice (I think they were replaced with a new striker). If I were forced to carry a .40 (I would not willingly do so, as it is a solution in search of a problem) the M&P would be my first choice.

The Glock 40s are well known for being the pinnacle of malfunctions, and the Beretta 96s break, and break a lot, under serious use (not to mention that they are ergonomic abominations). I believe USBP said their service life was 3K rounds (which would be at least half gone upon completion of the academy). I have heard SIG has finally started to address their long standing QC problems, but I'd have to see some more years of not sucking before I considered one (and I would not have a DA/SA pistol again without a hell of a fight).

 

[catcus-jack]

Look guys quit arguing the Sig is the superior pistol and that's the bottom line.I have 5 M&Ps and 2 Sigs I would sell the M&Ps before the Sigs if I could have just 1 brand.