SoCalDep
Member
Funny... I sold all my Sigs for M&Ps.
Texas DPS ditches M&P and returns to SIG
- Thread starter Badkarma 1
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The Sarge
Member
I own 12 SIG Sauer pistols from the old German to the latest. Carried SIGs on duty for many years and issued them to my department. Never a single problem with any one of them. The Exeter made SIG QC is often thrown out there but I have yet to see it. Some don't like traditional DA/SA. I thrive on it. Bill
Oh yeah, oh yeah?!?! Well, my GMC pick-up's better than anything you drive and if you don't believe me, you can eat worms and die! C'mon guys, I expect better on this forum than a brand war. There's enough of that on other gun forums. Bad enough some troll put this on our site, but for us to take the bait? You like Sigs? Fine, there's a Sig forum, Glock too. Go there and gloat.
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Just a point to consider, what is the comparision in slide movement (tighteness) between the m&p versus a 1911? I remember my army days when the 1911 we used and fired would rattle like a model t truck.
Ohsheepdog
Member
Oh yeah, well my Dad can beat up your Dad![emoji12]
Seriously, God Bless America & the freedom we have in the 2nd Amendment, much less the choices we have in numerous types & manufacturers...
I had a VTAC for awhile & it left me cold, as do all M&Ps. My wife will only shoot striker fired guns, so I traded the VTAC for her fav, a Glock 19 & I got her a Shield since Glock hasn't made a single stack 9 yet. I don't care for either, but I know she does! Whatever it takes to get her to carry & shoot...
Many local agencies use the M&P in 9 & 40. All of them had issues with the 40s, but their replaced guns have run 100%. I'm not aware of any issues with the 9s. Ever.
We carried the 4056 for over a decade & I hated it...i was used to a Glock 22, & the Smith was everything the Glock wasn't...heavy, complicated, heavy trigger, occasionally unreliable. I now have an appreciation for all 3rd Gens, but wouldn't want to carry one everyday. That being said, I know & respect many others that do and love em.
I hope to continue to carry a Sig for the rest of my career, whether a DA/SA or striker fired, because it's what feels best for my hand & what I shoot most accurately.
Officers that can buy their own from an approved list are the most fortunate. Hopefully they try before they buy so they know they're carrying what will serve them the best.
Seriously, God Bless America & the freedom we have in the 2nd Amendment, much less the choices we have in numerous types & manufacturers...
I had a VTAC for awhile & it left me cold, as do all M&Ps. My wife will only shoot striker fired guns, so I traded the VTAC for her fav, a Glock 19 & I got her a Shield since Glock hasn't made a single stack 9 yet. I don't care for either, but I know she does! Whatever it takes to get her to carry & shoot...
Many local agencies use the M&P in 9 & 40. All of them had issues with the 40s, but their replaced guns have run 100%. I'm not aware of any issues with the 9s. Ever.
We carried the 4056 for over a decade & I hated it...i was used to a Glock 22, & the Smith was everything the Glock wasn't...heavy, complicated, heavy trigger, occasionally unreliable. I now have an appreciation for all 3rd Gens, but wouldn't want to carry one everyday. That being said, I know & respect many others that do and love em.
I hope to continue to carry a Sig for the rest of my career, whether a DA/SA or striker fired, because it's what feels best for my hand & what I shoot most accurately.
Officers that can buy their own from an approved list are the most fortunate. Hopefully they try before they buy so they know they're carrying what will serve them the best.
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OP
Badkarma 1
US Veteran
Troll huh? Gee thanks for that. The same thread is running over at the Sig Forum with a lot less drama.
If I'm a troll for putting up what is currently going on, so be it, it's just a word. Enjoy your Easter.
L.Pete, I thought you were going to the XD platform?
Dale
silversport
Member
I bet we find these are problems of degrees and less of the actual pistol...find the right ammunition, training combination and I think there will be success...if not...we'll find out about it and either S&W will fix the issues or that will be the end of the M&P...
Bill
Bill
Hah, that's a funny thread... actually kind of a joke. Filled with misinformation, twisted info, unsubstantiated info and exaggerated info and examples of failure... I especially got a kick out of the old striker breakage issue being brought up like that's a problem today... then the old ownership and lock being brought up.... really was a comical thread filled with nothing of value. I could see several members from here, calling out the BS in a nice way and the typical M&P trolls pushing 3rd gen S&W like it's the only gun ever built... 
elpac3
Member
S&W m&P issues in with Tx DPS
Huh - - - Never had any failures to feed, failures to eject, or magazines dropping out when I carried a model 19.
Huh - - - Never had any failures to feed, failures to eject, or magazines dropping out when I carried a model 19.
safearm
US Veteran
The days of taking a brand new Model 15-2 out of the box and issuing it to a rookie with the advice of, "Go gettem kid," are long gone.
I can't recall a single gun-related problem when my department issued Model 15s. Yet when it converted to the Sig P220, there were all kinds of problems, some operator error, but also some related to the gun and particularly the magazines. We never had a Model 15 rust in the holster, but we did have some Sigs do that.
There will be growing pains whenever there is a change, just like the 3rd generation Glocks. I've had a two M&P9s, one full size and one compact, and never had any problems, but I haven't fired 2,500 rounds through either of them.
Capt (ret) Phil Hemphill of the Mississippi Highway Patrol was a big proponent of the M&P (S&W was a sponsor of his team's competitive shooting) and tried to get the state to go with the M&P over the Glock when the department converted from the S&W 4046, but to no avail.
I'm sure there are just as many success stories with the M&P with law enforcement agencies as there are failures, and probably just as many successes and failures with the M&P as there are with the Glock, Sig, Beretta, etc.
I can't recall a single gun-related problem when my department issued Model 15s. Yet when it converted to the Sig P220, there were all kinds of problems, some operator error, but also some related to the gun and particularly the magazines. We never had a Model 15 rust in the holster, but we did have some Sigs do that.
There will be growing pains whenever there is a change, just like the 3rd generation Glocks. I've had a two M&P9s, one full size and one compact, and never had any problems, but I haven't fired 2,500 rounds through either of them.
Capt (ret) Phil Hemphill of the Mississippi Highway Patrol was a big proponent of the M&P (S&W was a sponsor of his team's competitive shooting) and tried to get the state to go with the M&P over the Glock when the department converted from the S&W 4046, but to no avail.
I'm sure there are just as many success stories with the M&P with law enforcement agencies as there are failures, and probably just as many successes and failures with the M&P as there are with the Glock, Sig, Beretta, etc.
My daughter selected an M&P9c (for a birthday present) and she has learned to shoot it well, if not quite as fast as I would like. That will come. She is not in any sort of danger but I would say if someone tried to bother her when she could lay her hands on that gun, they could be in some pretty serious trouble.
I personally happen to prefer the traditional DA/SA SIG pistol design (in spite of its very high bore-axis), but I also have no reservations about my M&Ps. They are not target pistols, but they have no reliability issues that I am aware of that prevent me from using them as they were intended to be used. Unfortunately, much like Glunks, I really cannot say that I have any feeling for or pride in the M&Ps. For me, that characteristic seems only to apply to my S&W revolvers, various 1911s, and my one, lonely P210 - which I suppose is "my problem."
Here's my take on the whole article.
"It could be a training issue," Leghorn said, adding that both guns are popular among several law enforcement agencies around the country.
Between "microns" and other BS...a source who remains anonymous yet is responsible for the decision....I call BS on the whole thing.
Remember when NYC and Detroit moved from old wheel guns to Glocks.
How smooth was that transaction? And now Glocks are the standard.
Take it all with a grain of salt... people are resistant to change.
"It could be a training issue," Leghorn said, adding that both guns are popular among several law enforcement agencies around the country.
Between "microns" and other BS...a source who remains anonymous yet is responsible for the decision....I call BS on the whole thing.
Remember when NYC and Detroit moved from old wheel guns to Glocks.
How smooth was that transaction? And now Glocks are the standard.
Take it all with a grain of salt... people are resistant to change.
That's the best decision that agency ever made.
SIG has an M&P beat hands down issues or no issues.
tipoc
Member
Well Shawn no one here knows it seems what the movement was or where on the guns it was.
Since the movement showed up on only 2 of the guns who knows what it meant or if it made any difference in the functioning of the guns. The DPS has not said that it did.
As only some of the guns experienced "feed and ejection" problems and as the DPS could not get the guns to do it again, seems that's a hard one to pin down as well.
Mostly the "news" here is short on facts and the headlines are overblown. A headline that reads "Texas DPS ditches the MP and goes back to the Sig" is inaccurate on a couple of points and hyperbolic overall.
I await the actual story. If I never know it won't make any difference to me. If I do find out I'll likely forget it in a week.
tipoc
Edmo
US Veteran
I would think with a large contract such as with Texas DPS, S&W would have reps on hand to smooth over any hiccups with the transition. Someone there to make things "right" on the spot can go a long way towards keeping a contract.
Maybe it wasn't as important to S&W as I imagine, or their reps just couldn't overcome the problems experienced. Regardless, it is S&W's loss and Sig's win.
Edmo
Maybe it wasn't as important to S&W as I imagine, or their reps just couldn't overcome the problems experienced. Regardless, it is S&W's loss and Sig's win.
Edmo
tipoc
Member
S&W has not lost the contract. There is no news of that. There is no news that it was "Sig's win". DPS is still using the it's Sigs. There is no news on how many of the DPS are armed with Sigs or with the M&P.
What the articles say is that in one class for trainees they found some malfunctions in a few M&Ps. So they set those aside for the next round or rounds of training sessions and went with the Sigs on hand. S&W will look at the guns set aside. Nothing about dumping the M&P in favor of the Sigs.
tipoc
SuperMan
Member
Having been "in the business" for 30 years and worked in federl, state and local agencies I can tell the major problem with the whole selection process is unsolvable for one reason...one of anything doesn't fit all.
I worked for two agencies that had the correct answer....they trained you with a revolver and then gave you the choice of buying a wide variety of whatever you wanted to.
At the time, 1977, Dallas trained everyone with a S&W .38 Special revolver..that's it. When you passed with the revolver you could then change to any Colt, S&W or Browning semi-auto or revolver in 9mm, .38 Super, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, .45 AR .45 ACP and if you were an investigator .380 ACP. YOU were then responsible for the care and maintenance of the gun and to provide both qualification and duty ammo. And if your gun broke down you always had the department weapon you had already qualified with.
NHDOC/Probabtion/Parole: Recruits were trained with a Ruger Security-Six and then could buy their own 9mm, .38 Special or .45 ACP in any make or model but could not be a single action like a 1911. The department issued all qualification and duty ammo...
From what I have heard Dallas now lets their recruits select a semi-auto from several different models and calibers while in the academy and I believe they end up owning the weapon.
NHDOC went the opposite...they started issuing semis, Ruger 9mms, to all recruits and all those PPOs who had their own guns were grandfathered to be able to still carry their own. They have since switched to a Glock .40 and it has been a disaster.
I took the SIG LE Tactical Pistol Instructors Course back in about 2000. One item in the manual really jumped out at me...it said that no one firearm was right for everyone and that an agency should have a variety of firearms from DIFFERENT MAKERS so that the recruit can shoot to the best of their ability....what a novel concept.
...and Dallas PD got into 80+- gunfights a year when I was there...and had a 80%+ hit rate while the rest of the major departments were under 30%.
It is too bad that most LE administrators only see the bottom line instead of taking care of the Thin Blue one....
Bob
I worked for two agencies that had the correct answer....they trained you with a revolver and then gave you the choice of buying a wide variety of whatever you wanted to.
At the time, 1977, Dallas trained everyone with a S&W .38 Special revolver..that's it. When you passed with the revolver you could then change to any Colt, S&W or Browning semi-auto or revolver in 9mm, .38 Super, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, .45 AR .45 ACP and if you were an investigator .380 ACP. YOU were then responsible for the care and maintenance of the gun and to provide both qualification and duty ammo. And if your gun broke down you always had the department weapon you had already qualified with.
NHDOC/Probabtion/Parole: Recruits were trained with a Ruger Security-Six and then could buy their own 9mm, .38 Special or .45 ACP in any make or model but could not be a single action like a 1911. The department issued all qualification and duty ammo...
From what I have heard Dallas now lets their recruits select a semi-auto from several different models and calibers while in the academy and I believe they end up owning the weapon.
NHDOC went the opposite...they started issuing semis, Ruger 9mms, to all recruits and all those PPOs who had their own guns were grandfathered to be able to still carry their own. They have since switched to a Glock .40 and it has been a disaster.
I took the SIG LE Tactical Pistol Instructors Course back in about 2000. One item in the manual really jumped out at me...it said that no one firearm was right for everyone and that an agency should have a variety of firearms from DIFFERENT MAKERS so that the recruit can shoot to the best of their ability....what a novel concept.
...and Dallas PD got into 80+- gunfights a year when I was there...and had a 80%+ hit rate while the rest of the major departments were under 30%.
It is too bad that most LE administrators only see the bottom line instead of taking care of the Thin Blue one....
Bob
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snowman.45
Member
As a matter of fact, your statement there is pretty close to accurate. The very reason the Glock overcame the American-made, steel or alloy frame mentality we all had at the time was because it was so damned hard to ignore it's accuracy, reliability and durability. The last thing I wanted was a plastic handgun, but I was forced to admit that they worked and worked well.
Not saying the M&P doesn't have the same potential. I haven't had any problems with any of mine, nor have I heard of anything jaw-dropping.
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