That other top-break revolver from Britain!

[PALADIN85020]

I've been looking for one of these for some time, and found one this weekend. I'll be doing an article in the future on the British Enfield and Webley top-break revolvers as used during World War II, so this one will be my photo model.

It's a Webley Mark IV, which I estimate was produced by Webley and Scott Ltd. in 1944. It fires the .38/200 (known as the .380 in England), or the standard .38 S&W round. These were general issue during WWII, while the Inglis High Power pistol was issued to special forces and paratroopers.

I think if anyone was hit with one of these woefully inadequate and antiquated-design numbers and they found out about it, they might be tempted to do harm to the shooter. Ah well. Cheerio, mates, and pip-pip, don't you know.

John

 

[Pilgrim]

I suspect yours is older than you estimate. This Mark VI was made in 1917

 

[Dnovo1]

As a long time Webley collector, I have a real affection for these guns. However, they are sighted to shoot the 200gr load. Most commercial 32SW loadings on this side of the pond use the lighter loading and you will need to adjust accordingly. Dave

 

[Cyrano]

Mk VI was the British service designation for that revolver. Mk IV was the Webley commercial designation for theirs.

 

[pilgrim6a]

The Brits must hate Germans.

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
I have been a "Webley Fan" since the 1950s when Gold State Arms of California was selling Webleys for $9.95 for IVs and VIs for $14.95.
The Webley Mk IV was a .455 w/4' barrel and "Birdhead" grip.
The Webley Mk V was a .455 w/ 5" barrel and "Birdhead" grip.
The Webley Mk VI was a .455 w/ 6" barrel and square butt.
Enfields .38s were SA/DA and the "Commando" model was DA only with a spurless hammer.
For some reason (?) Enfields were several dollars higher than the Webleys.

 

[PALADIN85020]

I suspect yours is older than you estimate. This Mark VI was made in 1917

I'm actually pretty close to correct on the date for mine. The commercial Webley .38 Mk IV revolvers were not actually approved for service until September of 1945. The catch is that these Webleys had already been in service throughout the war. That approval was simply to "tidy up the paperwork." In order to distinguish the more finely-finished commercial Webleys from the rough-finished wartime "issue" jobs, the war babies were marked "WAR FINISH," as this one was. I suppose this helped to assuage Webley pride in producing a nice finish...usually. Contracts for the Webley Mark IV Military Model were issued 4/25/40, 5/28/40, 6/30/41, and 1/26/44. By far the bulk of these (40,000) were in that last contract. The first three contracts were for off-the-shelf commercial products, while the last contract probably had most, if not all, of the "war finish" pieces. So, by process of elimination, my educated guess is that this revolver was produced in 1944.

John

 

[Texas Star]

Hi:
I have been a "Webley Fan" since the 1950s when Gold State Arms of California was selling Webleys for $9.95 for IVs and VIs for $14.95.
The Webley Mk IV was a .455 w/4' barrel and "Birdhead" grip.
The Webley Mk V was a .455 w/ 5" barrel and "Birdhead" grip.
The Webley Mk VI was a .455 w/ 6" barrel and square butt.
Enfields .38s were SA/DA and the "Commando" model was DA only with a spurless hammer.
For some reason (?) Enfields were several dollars higher than the Webleys.

Jimmy-

Sorry, but the difference between the MK IV and V .455's was that the cylinder diameter was increased slightly on the latter, to make it safer with smokeless powder. Both usually had four-inch barrels, but six-inch ones exist.

The .38 shown is a MK IV .38, numbered in Webley's COMMERCIAL range. This is not the same order as the service MK guns. That confuses many.

Most of these MK IV .38's taken into British military use had five-inch barrels, which are exceedingly rare (if they exist) on the .455's. But Webley would take special orders from customers, and officers then bought their own sidearms. Someone might have ordered a five-inch barrel.

The best finished Webleys that I've seen were the WG models and the Wilkinson-Webleys, sold by the famous sword maker. Those were wonderful items. The "issued" ones have dull gray finishes, and War Finish .38's are really quite rough. They are easily the poorest finished Webleys. Don't judge the maker by them. S&W Victory Models are also pretty rough,as were late wartime German-issued pistols.

T-Star
P.S. That retailer was actually Golden State, not just Gold. But many other mail order dealers also sold them. I got my MK VI .455 at Montgomery Ward's. I was 13, and my mom had to buy it for me. I later bought one made by Enfield Arsenal, after the Crown cut Webley out as a provider in the 1920's. They frankly duplicated the MK VI, and only the markings distinguish them. By 1927, these began to be replaced witrh the Enfield .38's. By then, I think officers had to carry the issued handgun. It was probably part of the grand scheme to eventually ban private possession of guns in the UK.

 

[bmcgilvray]

I'd sure like to hear of an opportunity to obtain your article when it becomes published.

Webleys are fun. The factory .38 S&W is fairly anemic but a handload with a 200 grain lead round nose bullet hits to point of aim and provides a bit more "oomph." My Webley loves the heavy bullet load.

I have a couple. Webley is the only other revolver brand besides Smith & Wesson and Colt that I consider interesting enough to own.

World War II Mk IV .38/200

Boer War vintage MK IV .455

 

[BruceHMX]

I have been collecting Webley's for many years. I have them in 22, 32, 38 and 455. I will post some pics in a few. Just got home from Scouts.

The 22 and 32 variations are rare.

That's a good looking War Finish you have there.

Try to find some of the South African 38/200 to shoot in it. Nice load.

Will post pics in a few.

Take Care
Bruce

 

[jimmyj]

Hi, T-Star:
Thank you for the information.
I recall that Golden State Arms sold the Webley Mk IV .455 (Boer War) for $9.95 each which included a brown holster and a bottle of 44/40 cold blue. This was the mail order price and the weapons were shipped via Railway Express.

 

[PALADIN85020]

I'd sure like to hear of an opportunity to obtain your article when it becomes published.

I'm putting the finishing touches on the article now, and then it will go to Dillon for use in the Blue Press when they want to publish it. I can never predict much in advance exactly when any specific article will see print. That's up to the editor. I will give you a heads up when it does go to press.

FYI, the January edition of Dillon's Blue Press will contain my article on the U.S. S&W Model 1917, followed by one on the Colt M1917 in February.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Actually the Enfield No. 2 Mk I is "The Other" revolver, the Webleys in their various models came along long before it.

 

[Texas Star]

I have been collecting Webley's for many years. I have them in 22, 32, 38 and 455. I will post some pics in a few. Just got home from Scouts.

The 22 and 32 variations are rare.

That's a good looking War Finish you have there.

Try to find some of the South African 38/200 to shoot in it. Nice load.

Will post pics in a few.

Take Care
Bruce

Bruce-

I'd love to see your pix. Please don't forget.

T-Star

 

[pilgrim6a]

I don't have pics of mine right now. It's a Mk.IV, .380 Enfield cal. Marked 'WAR FINISH' The letters 'SPF" are stamped at the top of the back strap.
I assume this means 'S(something) Police Force'. Any other ideas?
BTW, where does one find S.African .380 Enfield ammo?

 

[Thuer]

I love those Webley revolvers.

Here is my MKV with 6 inch barrel.
It is used by New Zealand.

 

[Thuer]

I couldend resist. Here is my 3th model Fosbery.

I do own also an Webley MK IV in .38/200 made in 1951, an MK III and an Mint MK VI.

On the second pic you see the nut in the frame where the cilinder turns on.

 

[mkk41]

I think if anyone was hit with one of these woefully inadequate and antiquated-design numbers and they found out about it, they might be tempted to do harm to the shooter. Ah well. Cheerio, mates, and pip-pip, don't you know.

John

Well , you know how polite the Brits are. If they did shoot someone , they didn't want it to hurt!

 

[Dnovo1]

Actually, the original 200 gr load Enfield developed for these guns drew a pretest from the Germans in the late 30s. The bullet was flat nosed or semi cupped. The ever-correct Brit gov then switched to a more 'humane' round nosed load! Why they didn't change back to the original load when the War started is beyond me. As to where to find a current 200gr load now other than hand loading is a problem. Fiocchi used to load them but I do not see them in the current US offerings. Dave

 

[Dnovo1]

By the way, after Webley was absorbed by Greener post-war, they did a run of 200 'commemoratives' for 100 years of the Webley top breaks, in a wooden box with markings one the gun and numbered. I acquired one NIB from the late Val Forgett collection. These were the very last of the Webley handguns and listed as such on the certificates. Great piece. Dave