That other top-break revolver from Britain!
- Thread starter PALADIN85020
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palmetto99
Member
A friend/roomate of mine owned a MKIV that had belonged to his dad. The father had picked it up during the 1950's I think. Never got a chance to shoot it (I don't think the old guy sot it much). I wanted to make an offer on it, but I had been his dad's and I'm kind of funny about that kind of thing.
pilgrim6a
Member
herd118
Member
SPF is the Singapore Police Force.
pilgrim6a
Member
Thanks. I always thought it was Singapore, but wasn't sure.
I found some of my old reloads. .38 HBWC over 3.1 grs. of Unique. Hollow base slugs help when you're dealing with a land dia.of .361.
No one has mentioned the OTHER top break.
Webley & Scott III*. The cal. is 1.
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I have one of these Commemorative 100 Year Mark IV's! If anyone is interested I will get the number of the gun and cert. It is for sale.
stantheman86
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Old Western Scrounger sells 38/200
I don't have one but a .380 Webley is high on my list. I collect US service revolvers but England was an ally so I can allow it
I also like top-breaks but all of the S&W's are too rare or fragile to use as shooters.....
Would love a Russian .357 "REX" top break revolver but they are unobtanium.......
I don't have one but a .380 Webley is high on my list. I collect US service revolvers but England was an ally so I can allow it
I also like top-breaks but all of the S&W's are too rare or fragile to use as shooters.....Would love a Russian .357 "REX" top break revolver but they are unobtanium.......
Dalkowski110
Member
Oh, I love these! Here's mine...
Shoots great, is in practically perfect condition, and is also the revolver that got me hooked on Webleys and Enfield No. 2's.
Shoots great, is in practically perfect condition, and is also the revolver that got me hooked on Webleys and Enfield No. 2's.
jw mathews
Member
This is a good thread imo; I've enjoyed reading it as well as the photos. In the fall of 1997, Century Int'l Arms (CAI stamp on imports) offeted the 38 Webleys, in both War and Commercial finishes. I saw two commercials with different top strap markings, so there are variations to be had. The bullet info above is slightly misleading; the German protest was that the original Brit 200-grain bullet was lead, a violation of the Hague Convention. The Brits changed to a copper-jacketed bullet which was less effective. The American 38 S&W was always made with a 146 or 148-gr bullet, and that load will shoot to a different point of aim because the British sights were designed for the heavier ammo.
In 1958, Klein's in Chicago (the same firm that sold Lee Harvey Oswald the Italian rifle used to shoot JFK) offered Mark VI .455 Webley's for about $23, re-chambered foir ,45 Colt. There was at least one "WG Army" model mixed in because that's what they sent me. I should have sent in a second order for a real Mark VI but I didn't. Turns out the WG was made in 1901 (I wrote the factory) and not recommended for 45 Colt ammo...so I stopped shooting factory loads & switched to light reloads.
Those big Webleys are great, rugged guns & fun to shoot. Their thumb latch is easier to work than the latches on the old S&W top-breaks (sorry guys but it's true), but it can dig into the top of one's thumb if the gun is gripped normally. But the latch can serve as a thumb rest & the gun is then very comfortable to shoot. The WG has a fine DA trigger pull; I think the Mark VI lockwork is similar but have never fired one. .455 ammo is made by Fiocchi, btw.
In 1958, Klein's in Chicago (the same firm that sold Lee Harvey Oswald the Italian rifle used to shoot JFK) offered Mark VI .455 Webley's for about $23, re-chambered foir ,45 Colt. There was at least one "WG Army" model mixed in because that's what they sent me. I should have sent in a second order for a real Mark VI but I didn't. Turns out the WG was made in 1901 (I wrote the factory) and not recommended for 45 Colt ammo...so I stopped shooting factory loads & switched to light reloads.
Those big Webleys are great, rugged guns & fun to shoot. Their thumb latch is easier to work than the latches on the old S&W top-breaks (sorry guys but it's true), but it can dig into the top of one's thumb if the gun is gripped normally. But the latch can serve as a thumb rest & the gun is then very comfortable to shoot. The WG has a fine DA trigger pull; I think the Mark VI lockwork is similar but have never fired one. .455 ammo is made by Fiocchi, btw.
I have Mark Vis and their Enfield "Spin-offs" (yes, Enfield made Mark VIs in 0.455 after WWI for the British Army). Unfortunately of the 6 I own (combining Webley and Enfield), five are cut for 0.45 ACP, but one Webley is from the late South African commercial purchase and is still in 0.455. I load for the cut ones using 0.45 AR and 255 grain Lead Heads sized at 0.454 with fps of ~640. This mimics the 0.455 Webley load.
In addition, I have four Webley MkIVs all marked "war finish" which was Webley's way of saying that these were not up to the prewar finish standards but were 100% functional. For these, and for my Enfield No2's (No 2 MkI and then I* and I**) I use 38 SW brass and 180 grain lead FPs sized at 0.360. At 650 fps, these match the military round with the 178 FMJ bullet. Great fun to shoot and I would not like to be hit by any of the rounds irrespective of calibre. Dave_n
In addition, I have four Webley MkIVs all marked "war finish" which was Webley's way of saying that these were not up to the prewar finish standards but were 100% functional. For these, and for my Enfield No2's (No 2 MkI and then I* and I**) I use 38 SW brass and 180 grain lead FPs sized at 0.360. At 650 fps, these match the military round with the 178 FMJ bullet. Great fun to shoot and I would not like to be hit by any of the rounds irrespective of calibre. Dave_n
I have to disagree with that statement. The problem is the caliber, not the revolver. Had England the foresight to specify 38 Special for the new revolver design rather than 38 S&W these topbreaks would probably still be in production somewhere. The design itself is a very functional and durable for a field gun and the sights are far ahead of the fixed sights S&W and Colt were offering at that time. I have long been thinking of boring and lining one for 38 Special. Before a string of threads start pointing out 38 Special is too long for the cylinder consider just using 38 Special wadcutters similar to a S&W 52. The cylinders I've measured have enough length for 38 Special wadcuter ammo.
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For some reason I have one of those:
From the tables, this one would date to 1944. It is marked "WAR FINISH." It is in pretty good shape.
I fired it a few times and found it somewhat accurate. I'd kind of like to have a .455 to keep it company, but that is not high on my must-have list. I'd probably sell a couple of interesting guns to fund a Webley-Fosbery if one ever showed up in my vicinity.
Webleys always struck me as peculiar in that they were simple on the inside and complex on the surface, the exact opposite of S&Ws or Colts. It's almost as though they went through some kind of multi-dimensional crisis that turned them all inside out. I guess that would make them easy to service, though, so perhaps they look that way based on valid (if not totally successful) design decisions.
From the tables, this one would date to 1944. It is marked "WAR FINISH." It is in pretty good shape.
I fired it a few times and found it somewhat accurate. I'd kind of like to have a .455 to keep it company, but that is not high on my must-have list. I'd probably sell a couple of interesting guns to fund a Webley-Fosbery if one ever showed up in my vicinity.
Webleys always struck me as peculiar in that they were simple on the inside and complex on the surface, the exact opposite of S&Ws or Colts. It's almost as though they went through some kind of multi-dimensional crisis that turned them all inside out. I guess that would make them easy to service, though, so perhaps they look that way based on valid (if not totally successful) design decisions.
jw mathews
Member
Dave n--
I enjoyed yr interesting post. I'm curious as to whether you've had to thin the base of the .45 Auto Rim cases in order for them to chamber in the .455 Mak VI. I know that .45 ("Long") Colt cases will fit because that rechambering is a simple reaming operation to lengthen the chambers. Guns converted to use .45ACP ammo usually had the rear faces of their cylinders machined down to accept the clips used to hold .45ACP rounds in the 1917 & later .45 revolvers, which would increase the "headspace" between the rear of the cylinder & the standing breech.
I ask because the regular .455 revolver ammo has a thinner rim than the .45AR.
I enjoyed yr interesting post. I'm curious as to whether you've had to thin the base of the .45 Auto Rim cases in order for them to chamber in the .455 Mak VI. I know that .45 ("Long") Colt cases will fit because that rechambering is a simple reaming operation to lengthen the chambers. Guns converted to use .45ACP ammo usually had the rear faces of their cylinders machined down to accept the clips used to hold .45ACP rounds in the 1917 & later .45 revolvers, which would increase the "headspace" between the rear of the cylinder & the standing breech.
I ask because the regular .455 revolver ammo has a thinner rim than the .45AR.
THEWELSHM
Member
Texas Star
US Veteran
I read about one case where a British officer at (I think) El Alamein shot a fleeing Italian in the back with a .38. This guy had entered battle with just nine rounds of .38 ammo!
He was later wounded, too, and the pair were in the same aid station. The Italian died many hours later, in great pain all the while, while they waited for a surgeon.
On the other hand, I read about a case in the USA where a cop with a .38 S&W using the lead 200 grain Super Police load tagged a fleeing thug in the back at 75 yards. He was stopped dead in his tracks and the bullet was mushroomed.
My father once had a cheap topbreak marked U.S. Revolver Co. I think it was really made by Iver Johnson. Copied a S&W design. He had some of those 200 grain loads, but never shot the gun. I doubt the 200 grain ammo has been made since WW II. I think his box was from Winchester.
I beieve he got it from my grandfather, who probably bought it in the 1930's.
He was later wounded, too, and the pair were in the same aid station. The Italian died many hours later, in great pain all the while, while they waited for a surgeon.
On the other hand, I read about a case in the USA where a cop with a .38 S&W using the lead 200 grain Super Police load tagged a fleeing thug in the back at 75 yards. He was stopped dead in his tracks and the bullet was mushroomed.
My father once had a cheap topbreak marked U.S. Revolver Co. I think it was really made by Iver Johnson. Copied a S&W design. He had some of those 200 grain loads, but never shot the gun. I doubt the 200 grain ammo has been made since WW II. I think his box was from Winchester.
I beieve he got it from my grandfather, who probably bought it in the 1930's.
policerevolvercollector
Member
Here are some police issued Webley revolvers:
1) Natal Mounted Police
2) New South Wales Police
This group includes an Enfield from the Federation of Malaya Police (FMP) & Webleys from Singapore, London Metro Police, Egyptian Police , a R.I.C. issued MkIII, and others.
The Hong Police Police from the '30s in .38/145 aka 38/200 had a front sight insert that you changed when you switched from the lighter to the heavier bullet.This one is missing....:
I keep this .455 around just for looks:
1) Natal Mounted Police
2) New South Wales Police
This group includes an Enfield from the Federation of Malaya Police (FMP) & Webleys from Singapore, London Metro Police, Egyptian Police , a R.I.C. issued MkIII, and others.
The Hong Police Police from the '30s in .38/145 aka 38/200 had a front sight insert that you changed when you switched from the lighter to the heavier bullet.This one is missing....:
I keep this .455 around just for looks:
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Texas Star
US Veteran
Here are some police issued Webley revolvers:
1) Natal Mounted Police
2) New South Wales Police
This group includes an Enfield from the Federation of Malaya Police (FMP) & Webleys from Singapore, London Metro Police, Egyptian Police , a R.I.C. issued MkIII, and others.
The Hong Police Police from the '30s in .38/145 aka 38/200 had a front sight insert that you changed when you switched from the lighter to the heavier bullet.This one is missing....:
I keep this .455 around just for looks:
The MK III .38 othe bottom in the third pic is what a couple of characters on, "Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World" should have had on the show. They actually used MK IV .38's, not made until at least 1927. The show was set from 1919-1922. Another MK IV .38 stood in for a MK VI .455, although Lord John Roxton did have a nickled pair of MK VI's, worn in shoulder holsters when he didn't wear his Colt 1911 .45.
If you have the DVD's or if the show goes into re-runs again, look at the Webley sometimes worn by Ned Malone and that old fud Dr. Summerlee.
BTW, the actor who played Summerlee is anti-gun and he and I had some disagreements about that on the former New Line Cinema board about the show. To his credit, after being cut from the cast after the first season, he did interact with fans on the board. None of the other stars did, although Rachel Blakely did do a phone-in interview from Australia and offered comments to be furthered by an intermediary. Jennifer O'Dell answered selected questions on her own board, since revised.
This is the last show that I saw that featured any Webleys, although three characters also or entirely used Colt products. Rachel (she played Marguerite Krux) had a Webley hammerless model (WP?) a couple of times, but often used an Iver Johnson that I guess was cheaper to rent from the prop house.
I just saw your added photos. The MK IV .38 with wooden stocks is the first that I've seen with wood on it. Thanks for the pictures.
The best Webley book is probably Wm. Chipchase Dowell's, "The Webley Story." But it seems hard to locate and is probably out of print. Geoffrey Boothroyd did a pretty good job on Webley with nice pics in, "The Handgun". That is probably the best single book ever written on handguns, from earliest times to about the mid-1960's.
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shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
If it's all the same to you, I'd rather not volunteer to be shot with one of those. Just one of my silly prejudices.
