The .22 Is So Weak!!!

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JayFramer

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Tell that to the five people that were murdered with one on the 23d in the Cascade Mall in Burlington, Washington. A young man came into one of the department stores and shot five people with a Ruger 10/22 chambered in .22LR.

All five were killed.

No others wounded.

Guys I'm making this thread because I've heard over and over all my life that "the .22 is so weak!" and "it's barely more powerful than a BB gun!" and things of that nature.

The .22 is lethal. VERY lethal. It should be treated with just as much respect as any other firearm, and is in no way shape or form a toy. It can and will kill you just as dead as a .30-06.

And as for using one for defense, I think you could do a lot worse than a 10/22 with a BX-25 magazine and some 40 grain high-velocity solids that were proven reliable in your particular gun. Almost no recoil for extremely fast and accurate followup shots, won't destroy your hearing like an AR-15, and with low overpenetration concern, but clearly enough power for the job with good shot placement.

So let all you .22 bashers just know what happened. It's a terrible tragedy, and a lesson for all that think .22s aren't "real guns".

Take care and Godspeed,

Jayframer
 
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22s can be lethal. I don't buy the idea they are as lethal as a .30-06. Yes, dead is dead. But on the whole, those shot with 22s are much more likely to survive than one shot with the large caliber weapon. They just aren't equal. I've even read more people are killed with the 22 than any other caliber. But we never hear how many were shot in total.
 
There was just a thread on 22s killing power on small game. This
amazed me. I had never herd of such a problem. The gun writers
have filled magazines with articles on small game hunting with 22
for years. Why is all of a sudden a 22 not enough to kill a squirrel
Having said that I would not select a 22 as my self defense gun.
While it does have the ability to kill, it has little knock down. I
can testify to this because I have been shot by one. I have shot
a lot of game, big & small, with everything from a 22 to 458. It
all boils down to one thing, shot placement and enough gun for
the job.
 
You'd be surprised to find out how little "knock down" any round from most handheld firearms has unless the bullet strikes something solid or a major electrical circuit or nerve center in the body. Even then, it's not a knock down but rather a fall down in place. Unless a bullet is almost spent in it's flight path, it really won't hurt a lot. It will strike and pass through very quickly without actually moving the body at all unless it strikes a bone. A body weighs so much more than a bullet that the bullet will not knock down that body or knock it back. I am personally aware of a fellow who received a shot in the abdomen from a .22LR round. That round struck his pelvis, ricocheted upward striking a rib, back downward striking the pelvis again, made this round trip once again and stopped before penetrating the diaphram. The fellow was found to have 27 holes in his intestines (counting both in and out) as it passed through his abdomen nearly a full six times. Bullet was found inside. I am aware of another instance where a .22LR entered a man's head through one of his eyes. That bullet hit the inside of the side of his skull and began a round trip around inside his head and pretty much scrambled his brain before it lost all it's velocity. The first man died hours after he was shot. The second man died instantly or nearly so.

Physics is still physics. If any caliber bullet caused a body to raise off the ground and fly backward, then the person shooting the gun would have a similar experience. Every action has an equal reaction. If you have a firm grip on your handgun and are adept at handling recoil, you can expect the bullet's impact to have the same effect on it's body target, with some variation depending on exactly where and what that bullet strikes on it's way through the body. There may be a very few exceptions since every trip through a body is different. My personal experience with a bullet strike that did not hit any bone or other serious target that was necessary for continued operation felt like someone poking me with a finger and pushing a bit. I felt it but it did not move me out of my tracks! Had the bullet struck something serious, I'd have been basically covering my tracks when I went down.
 
Five for five is unusual. Reports of shootings are usually pretty lopsided toward wounded versus killed. Take for example last weekend in Chicago. The Tribune reported 45 wounded, 9 killed.
 
Nice story in American Rifleman about a Colt Woodsman taken on safari. The PH who owned it used it to neatly dispatch wounded game and 8-foot nuisance crocodiles.

In another article (Handgunner, I think?) the author told two stories. One was about a brain-dead dolt that decided to shove his little .22 hideout pistol into his pants sans holster. He was surprised by the ND this caused, but thought nothing of it, being drunk as a skunk. Three days later, he noticed a big splotch of blood on the left leg of his pants. Turns out the ND missed his right leg, crossed over, and hit him in the left knee, going unnoticed.

The other story was about a nice old lady struck by an errant behind-the-back shot made by a robber fleeing her store. Struck her square in the base of the skull, paralyzing her for life.

---

The .22LR, like all cartridges, is naturally quite lethal when properly delivered.

The problem is that if you can carry a .22, there are many more powerful cartridges you could carry just as easily. A .380 or 9mm is not much larger. Even the diminutive (but surprisingly powerful) .22 WMR, or .32 H&R Magnum, all offfering different levels of recoil. Most of which can be accurately fired just as fast as the .22.

Are there absolutely miniscule .22s on the market (think the NAA line)? Sure. Would I personally select one of those as a defensive tool? No. I can't even see how to grip those things without risking shooting my own fingers off!

The blowback action used in most .22 pistols is overly large and heavy for its caliber, making them unsuitable for defense. A shame, because the blowback-operated pistol is clearly the most reliable autoloading action for the cartridge.

Ironically, as I look at my handgun collection, I believe that my Ruger Mk III Hunter might just be the largest and heaviest handgun I own! It's certainly a close call between the 6 7/8" fluted-barrel Mk III, and the 6" 629-5!

Not to mention--the .22LR is not conducive to what I'd call "casual reliability". Many match shooters put in the time to achieve true reliability, and use the quality ammunition required to run for thousands of rounds in between failures.

But many shooters do not put in that sort of effort, and insist on using budget bulk ammunition. I know many shooters that simply cannot shoot a 30-round National Match Course without having a stoppage. Not good odds for a defensive pistol.

So--while I will be the first one to defend the effectiveness of the small-caliber pistol, I will also say the following:

(1) Any time you can carry a .22LR, you can carry something more powerful.
(2) I don't know of any gunfight survivor who ever said, "Man, I wish I had a less-powerful gun."
 
I've posted this before but I'll give it another go.

I spent 17 of my 24 years in the FBI working violent crime on Indian reservations in Montana, Idaho, and New Mexico. Most of our murders didn't involve firearms - knives, rocks, fists, feet, cars, and pretty much anything else that was handy were more common. But of the 25 percent that did involve guns the lowly .22 repeater was the hands down favorite.

Of course that is because that is what was handy. No mystery there - money is tight and on the rez a .22 rifle can do almost anything you might need it to do.

I was sitting around with a group of Indian Country agents at some training and I told them I had never had a non-lethal shooting with a .22 rifle. We investigate all shootings, not just murders, so I had a pretty good sample. The closest I had was a guy who shot up a bar front with his Marlin Model 60 and hit a shot glass a patron was raising up to drink, resulting in a cut lip. I don't count that one because the bullet didn't hit him.

In every other one, at least a dozen or so, the victim was shot a bunch of times in rapid succession and expired post haste.

My comrades all reported nearly identical results, though there might have been a survivor here or there. That's a lot of dead folks.

I think the key is familiarity with the weapon and lots of rounds delivered in a short time into the torso.

I'm not surprised at all that this cretin was able to kill all of his victims with his 10/22.
 
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My wife likes her pocket pistols. Sh has a nice little Kahr 9mm and can shoot it well. Prefers the PPK though and it is a 22. She shoots it very well. Also has a PPK in 380 and shoots it a bit better than the Kahr Anything is better than throwing rocks so I let her carry what she wants. Usually it will be the kahr...but she carries a Ruger BH in 45 Colt on the ranch here..But there is no concealment factor at home. When I was working in the Fire Dept as a Paramedic...we dealt with a few shootings. Approx 80% of the ones with 22s were fatal. Higher than all the centerfires. That said...when I carried I always carried a 45. I consider carrying a gun a PIA...but sometimes necessary. Of the one time shot with a 22..it hurt like HE double hockey sticks. 22s are deadly.

What the previous poster said too. Usually more than one round with the 22. Surprisingly many people shoot the lowly 22 well which is conducive to more rounds where they count!
 
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In 1979 Brenda Spencer wounded eight children an officer and killed the Principal and a custodian using a .22 caliber rifle.

Yes the .22 is very lethal as are all firearms. While we can debate that more gun is better the reality is shots from a .22 can and will be sufficient to cause severe bodily injury and death.

The media loves EBR's so what spin is there when the gun is a less than evil looking .22?

Bruce
 
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The 22lr does a lot of damage because it bounces off bones and ends up who knows where. I read about a guy shot in the leg and was killed when the bullet traveled up the leg and into his heart.
I shoot 22lr from handguns into a sand bullet stop and I seldom see a 22 bullet that didn't flatten out.
Reagan almost died from a little 22. If they hadn't taken him to the hospital he would have been dead within a short time.
 
sigp220.45 said:
I've posted this before but I'll give it another go.

I spent 17 of my 24 years in the FBI working violent crime on Indian reservations in Montana, Idaho, and New Mexico. Most of our murders didn't involve firearms - knives, rocks, fists, feet, cars, and pretty much anything else that was handy were more common. But of the 25 percent that did involve guns the lowly .22 repeater was the hands down favorite.

Of course that is because that is what was handy. No mystery there - money is tight and on the rez a .22 rifle can do almost anything you might need it to do.

I was sitting around with a group of Indian Country agents at some training and I told them I had never had a non-lethal shooting with a .22 rifle. We investigate all shootings, not just murders, so I had a pretty good sample. The closest I had was a guy who shot up a bar front with his Marlin Model 60 and hit a shot glass a patron was raising up to drink, resulting in a cut lip. I don't count that one because the bullet didn't hit him.

In every other one, at least a dozen or so, the victim was shot a bunch of times in rapid succession and expired post haste.

My comrades all reported nearly identical results, though there might have been a survivor here or there. That's a lot of dead folks.

I think the key is familiarity with the weapon and lots of rounds delivered in a short time into the torso.

I'm not surprised at all that this cretin was able to kill all of his victims with his 10/22.
Click to expand...

My brother lost use of his legs from an idiot kid and a Marlin 60.

ND struck Donnie in the back. Bullet didn't sever his spinal
cord but came close enough to (shock) it, according to his
doctors. He was a parapelegic at 14.
.22's are lethal.

On a brighter note, i have read that up north the natives have
used .22's for decades on Moose. They make one well placed
shot then wait.
Sometimes hours later they will track the animal slowly and find it laying dead. I guess the meat tastes better than shooting
it with something bigger and the animal gets tense and full of adrenaline and runs any distance.
With the .22 it's almost as if the Moose has been bitten by a
horse fly or stung by a hornet. They flinch, then go on about their business. They slowly bleed to death from a lethal shot
into a vital organ or artery.


Chuck
 
I'm not a caliber snob, but I would not depend on a rimfire firearm, be it 22lr or 44r. Rimfire cartridges are not as reliable due to ignition design of the cartridge. That wouldn't stop me from using one if that's what I had, but most of us have the choice when deciding what gun to carry.

It may be that some shooters cannot handle any more recoil than the 22lr due to physical limitations, but for almost all healthy people, that is not the case.
 
Would a .22 be my first choice?.... no....... also not my last choice...... that would be a "pointy stick".......

I'm in the process of "building" a Ruger 10/22 take-down ...... with folding stock.... "doubled 10 rd mags" with both a Busnell red dot/and Skinner peep sights........it will be my wife's BEAMER gun.......(her concealed carry is a 3" 65 w/ +P.38s)

.....yesterday I was putting 10 rds into "fist size" groups at 50 yds as fast as I could pull the trigger.........
 
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