The .38 S&W cartridge died from "Magnumitis".

[Captain O]

I have been watching (and shooting) revolver cartridges since I was a lad in the mid 1960's and noticed a slow change in revolver chamberings; the slow death/obsolecence of the .38 S&W Cartridge.

This is quite sad, because in today's "standard" loads:

a) The 146-grain RNL handily outperforms and outpenetrates the .380 Auto cartridge eight ways from Sunday.

b) The "I" fame revolver was strong enough to accommodate the .38 S&W Special cartridge. (I've seen a conversion perfromed, and the revolver shoots well).

c) Buffalo Bore has formulated a load that parallels a .38 S&W Special in the lighter frame, allowing for a more potent carry personal defense cartridge without the complications/disadvantages of the self-shucker.

The .38 S&W was produced in the "I","J" and "K" frame revolvers. It served the British military forces during WW2, and vindicated itself rather handily.

While many today "rave" about the concealability and relative potency of the .380 cartridge, I still see the .38 S&W as a viable (and often superior) alternative to the .380, due to:

a) Higher performance (read: deeper penetration and more reliable expansion with gas-checked solid, soft lead, hollow-point bullets).

b) The fact that a revolver is far less likely to jam with a varietybof ammunition. ( No auto-cycling problems here).

c) Heavier bullets in the .38 S&W penetrate more deeply, thus be more effective with each round fired, than the .380 ever could be.

Now I know that the .38 S&W's lead bullet diameter is .361" and is NOT directly compatible with the .38 S&W Special, but the cartridge has accuracy mentioned even by the late Elmer Keith. Modern loads have enhanced he viability of this grand old cartridge and place it on a par with the 9mm Makarov.

I thnk that a revival of the .38 S&W as a "deep concealment" revolver in an "I" frame revolver (with the proper marketing) would sell rather well.

D'ya think?

 

[Art Doc]

The 38 S&W is a little under powered for self defense use. Better loads can help, but will only take it so far. I have loaded the 38 S&W up to 975 FPS with a 125 JHP. That is slightly better than the factory +P 38 Special with the same bullet, but pales compared to the 1150 FPS I get from the same 125 JHP from a 2" 38 Special.

With good loads the 38 S&W compares to a 380, but the auto pistol holds 7 rounds and is faster to reload. Case closed.

I have several 38 S&W revolvers but I wouldn't make one my 1st choice for defensive use. There's a reason the 38 Special replaced it many decades ago.

 

[Green Frog]

I'm a little confused about your statement, "The "I" fame [sic] revolver was strong enough to accommodate the S&W Special cartridge. (I've seen a conversion performed and the revolver shoots well.)" Since the first J frame, the Baby Chief, was developed to address the too-short cylinder, are you talking about a J-frame cylinder in an I frame gun (with a shortened barrel extension through the frame window) or specially shortened 38 Special ammo? You could just hog out the 38 S&W chambers to 38 Special length like was done to so many Victory Models, but you would still have a short chamber length compared to COAL of standard 38 Special rounds. Love those little 38s, though!

Froggie

 

[murphydog]

Nothing against the .38 S & W, but availability of ammunition/revolvers and compatibility with .357 Magnum are two factors favoring the .38 Special in the past, now and the future. Dealers and manufacturers can't have every cartridge available...

 

[Arik]

Until such guns an ammo are readily available in store it ain't gonna happen. Why play with and work up a load when I can just buy 38spl or 9mm (none magnums). For deep concealement I can just buy a Kahr P9 or PM9 in 9mm.

There are a lot of old cartridges that would work better today due to better metallurgy and overall quality of powders, brass, bullets, firearms. But why reinvent the wheel? There's already modern stuff that meats and beats most anything from then

 

[Engine49guy]

A good thread gets your thinking juices flowing but when stood up the .38 S&W is sightly taller then the 9mm Parabellum cartridge.

So if your intention is to outperform the .38 special in a smaller casing the J frame 9mm Model 940 is the wiser choice,
If your desire is a smaller frame , you could probably retro fit a 940 cylinder to an old Baby Chief J frame,
If your concern is weight the aluminum J frames are probably much lighter than the steel I frame even though the I frame had a slightly shorter cylinder.

 

[GatorFarmer]

The Chinese are buying a large number of guns to arm their traffic cops. The gun they selected? A locally made and designed revolver with a cartridge much like the old .38 S&W.

 

[Captain O]

Saxon Pig: The case isn't really closed. For weight and velocity the .38 S&W really does "outclass" the .380. I don't know of a single 147-grain .380 load. One has to move to the 9mm Parabellum to accomplish this.

BTW, I saw the "I" frame conversion at a S&W Collector's convention in Vancouver Washington a few years ago. The man had replaced both the cylinder and barrel with that of the .38 Special to chamber the longer cartridge correctly.

Arik: As I had writtten earlier, Buffalo Bore has already loaded ammunition that arranges for decent penetration.

I had written earlier that not everyone enjoys auto pistols. They can be a pain to keep perking, and relying on the .380 for adequate penetration is not always to such a hot idea. While they may appear "in vogue" or "stylish", penetration is not their long suit. Frankly, If I had a choice between the two, the .38 S&W would get the nod. (146-grains at 800 fps FAR outpenetrates 85-95 grain bullets at the same velocity. Simple phsics bears this out.

If you like the .380, good luck to you! More of them fail to penetrate due to lack of both velocity and bullet mass.

There's no "reinvention of the wheel" taking place. The .38 S&W was produced long before John Moses Browning's .380... by more than a decade! (That is uless you count improving ammunition, then all bets are off).

 

[Cal44]

I passed on buying a Colt Banker's Special in 38 S&W.

Sorry I did. It's a very small 6 shooter, and with the BB cartridge would be quite effective.

I like six shots -- it's 20% more than 5 shots.

 

[Captain O]

A good thread gets your thinking juices flowing but when stood up the .38 S&W is sightly taller then the 9mm Parabellum cartridge.

So if your intention is to outperform the .38 special in a smaller casing the J frame 9mm Model 940 is the wiser choice,
If your desire is a smaller frame , you could probably retro fit a 940 cylinder to an old Baby Chief J frame,
If your concern is weight the aluminum J frames are probably much lighter than the steel I frame even though the I frame had a slightly shorter cylinder.

No one said anything about outperfroming the .38 S&W Special. I stated that the 9mm Makarov is nearly on a ballistic par with the .38 S&W. (same bullet diameter), but the bullet is far lighter! The .38 S&W's bullet weight will almost always be heavier, and the velocities of the two rounds will generally be equal. Heavier weight + equal velocites = better penetration.

The old "I" frame was lighter and was heat treated too. Try reading the earlier Speer's Reloading Manual # 10. You may find this illuminating.

 

[Engine49guy]

IMO what really killed the .38 S&W is that it did not fit in .38 special handguns so had no interchangeability.

If the crux of what your saying is that an I frame deep concealment revolver in .38 S&W
with the following attributes would sell well with the proper marketing :
1, I frame based revolver slightly smaller than the J frame Baby Chief .
2, More power than a .380 but on par with the 9mm Makarov and although looks like a short .38 special use a round that could not be fired in current .38 specials or .357's .
While I do like the old .38 S&W Terriers (have 2) this new gun would not appeal to me ,
I might be interested if it fired a shorter .38 special that was equal to 9mm in power that could also could be fired in my current .38/357's.

 

[snuffy51]

I have several H&R 925s' in .38 S&W, and they are a hoot to shoot. Fairly accurate, handle well, just fun. Ammo might cost $$ but I will let my heirs worry about that. I buy firearms I like to shoot. A large can of tomato paste works just fine if you like to see blood. If my dog barks at night I have my 12 gauge in hand when I check it out. Now that will STOP somebody. EDC is a 4" model 10 loaded with 158 gr.SWCHC BB. I get to shoot my cans anytime I want to. I hope I never use my EDC, but I can very well if i ever have to. Confidence in yourself is most important. Shoot often and always be safe!!

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Are we talking about the .38 S&W or the .38 S&W Special. Two different beasties here.

 

[Arik]

I saw the BB mention but it's only one company and one which would have to be specifically ordered. Where as I can walk into any lgs and buy a dozen different varieties of 38spl - 9mm.

I just went to BB website and the 38 S&W is $28.79 for 20 rounds + shipping. Why would I want to deal with that when I can buy all the Speer Gold Dots 124gr that I want for $35 for 50 rounds at my LGS. and it's only about $10 for 50 rounds of practice ammo.

 

[aphelion]

I thnk that a revival of the .38 S&W as a "deep concealment" revolver in an "I" frame revolver (with the proper marketing) would sell rather well.

D'ya think?

I can understand the appeal of shooting old cartridges. I load and shoot 22 Jet, 25-20, 32-40, 348 Win, 45-70, etc. all great cartidges in their own way. All except the 45-70 are basically dead. So is the 38 S&W because it does nothing the 38 Special does not do better. Would a 38 S&W revolver sell well? Not in this universe

 

[Captain O]

I saw the BB mention but it's only one company and one which would have to be specifically ordered. Where as I can walk into any lgs and buy a dozen different varieties of 38spl - 9mm.

I just went to BB website and the 38 S&W is $28.79 for 20 rounds + shipping. Why would I want to deal with that when I can buy all the Speer Gold Dots 124gr that I want for $35 for 50 rounds at my LGS. and it's only about $10 for 50 rounds of practice ammo.

The BB ammunition is for "seroius social work". You sound much like the preponderance of our modern culture, "If it isn't immediately available cheaply, why bother"? Handloaders tend to look beyond the 'right here, right now' convenience aspect of things.

You can go back to your Keurig coffee brewer, and your ready-rolled world. Some of us are willing to "go the extra mile" and "roll our own" so that we can:

a) save money,

b) enhance our chosen cartridge's performance and

c) develop accurate loads for the arm possessed.

If you can't "see beyond today's 'pre-packaged' world", you're the one missng out, not I.

Good luck!

 

[snuffy51]

I guess I'm just old and set in my ways. There is always something brighter and newer. BBs' work well for me. I shoot a few every now and then and practice often with AM. EAGLE 158gr LRN. Very little difference in POI at self defense ranges. I buy them from Midway for $25 plus change & no tax. Shipping is very fast & reasonable. I keep a good supply on hand. I was mainly commenting on the H&R 925 & the .38S&W cartridge. Everyone is not an OP. Plus, I've been married to my high school sweetheart for 45 years and still loving it. I might even see if the Gold Dots will do to a watermelon one day. Get good with something and stick with it. Be safe and know what's happening. My son can worry about what I spent after I die.

 

[Captain O]

I can understand the appeal of shooting old cartridges. I load and shoot 22 Jet, 25-20, 32-40, 348 Win, 45-70, etc. all great cartidges in their own way. All except the 45-70 are basically dead. So is the 38 S&W because it does nothing the 38 Special does not do better. Would a 38 S&W revolver sell well? Not in this universe

"Bigger is always better" right? It sounds as if you're compensating for other physical "shortcomings".

It seems to work well overseas, The USA isn't the entire world, and S&W sold their Terrier well into the 1970's.

You needn't use a rocket launcher Where a Squad Automatic Weapon will suffice. Why does a handgun always have to exhibit "more power"? Sometimes "less is more".

"Magnumitis" strikes again!

 

[snuffy51]

I think CAPTAIN O has his head on straight too! "A good start is 20 lawyers at the bottom of the sea."

 

[Arik]

The BB ammunition is for "seroius social work". You sound much like the preponderance of our modern culture, "If it isn't immediately available cheaply, why bother"? Handloaders tend to look beyond the 'right here, right now' convenience aspect of things.

You can go back to your Keurig coffee brewer, and your ready-rolled world. Some of us are willing to "go the extra mile" and "roll our own" so that we can:

a) save money,

b) enhance our chosen cartridge's performance and

c) develop accurate loads for the arm possessed.

If you can't "see beyond today's 'pre-packaged' world", you're the one missng out, not I.

Good luck!

If you want to reload more power to you! I don't have the patience for it. If that's preponderance of our modern culture then so be it but I have no interest, desire, will, want, patience, for it. I don't want to spend a day loading 500 rounds so that I can go to the range. I want to order it on Monday, have it by Friday and hit the range in Sunday, my only day off.

A) I get it but read the above

B ) I'm plenty happy with modern self defense loads

C) Since I don't shoot bullseye or bench my firearms center mass at handgun distance is fine with me

I don't see as I'm missing anything since it would take more time away from my only day off.

Hand loading the 38s&w doesn't get you to a good off the shelf 38spl. So even if I were to load my own the store bought 38spl is still a better self defense round