No sense in re inventing the wheel. This subject has been beat to death:
The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing
The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing
The Ammo with the best stopping power may not be the best for home defense.
- Thread starter sirrduke2010
- Start date
Whether in your home or on the street, there is always the chance for a missed shot. It comes with the responsibilty on using a firearm for self defense.
It is our responsibility to minimize the "misses". Training, practice, and preparation will help greatly.
Having a good plan at home will help too.
From my front door there is a hallway to the bedrooms. On the other side of the hallway is a fireplace. Any bad guys that come down the hallway get blasted.
The chances that they are there to do us harm are greater than me missing completely.
It is our responsibility to minimize the "misses". Training, practice, and preparation will help greatly.
Having a good plan at home will help too.
From my front door there is a hallway to the bedrooms. On the other side of the hallway is a fireplace. Any bad guys that come down the hallway get blasted.
The chances that they are there to do us harm are greater than me missing completely.
No, but I do believe the wall, another wall, the fridge and another wall should take care of it. Or at least slow the by-then fragmented hollow point down a bit.
Or I could take the tact of a few in this thread (not saying it's you) and say: "Oh, the Hell with it. There's bound to be some collateral damage and I have no responsibility to try to minimize it. Or even think about a plan. I'll just get my John Wayne on and spray and pray.
So you have a sweet spot in your home where you like to shoot people? LMAO.
When the time comes to defend yourself and there's a perp moving and running through your bedroom or grabbing your loved ones, you won't have time or the mental capacity to consider shooting lanes and verify back drops. You will have a split second to react and hopefully you do REACT and your brain isn't so muddled with penetration velocities and wall dimensions that cause you to freeze for an instant. That brief pause as you determine if the shot will be safe and proper could end with you feeling cold steel enter your chest cavity.
When the time comes to defend yourself and there's a perp moving and running through your bedroom or grabbing your loved ones, you won't have time or the mental capacity to consider shooting lanes and verify back drops. You will have a split second to react and hopefully you do REACT and your brain isn't so muddled with penetration velocities and wall dimensions that cause you to freeze for an instant. That brief pause as you determine if the shot will be safe and proper could end with you feeling cold steel enter your chest cavity.
No but the BG is going to be coming through a door. Knowing and accounting for what's on the other side will minimize "collateral damage" if that is the point of contact. I cannot guarantee anything but am not too lazy to move a bookcase or too ignorant to make some mental preparations.
raven818
Member
Bringing a knife to a gun fight?
Well yeah, the guy busting in may be armed with a knife, possibly one of the homeowner's knives... And if you are planning to shoot him at the door but he gets past the door before you can shoot... Then what? Do you shoot even when behind him is your neighbor's house? Are they home? Are they in that room? Do you think about it as the BG comes at you or do you just shoot!
Well, I am shooting.
I think SOMEONE is way over thinking things a bit.
KEEP IT SIMPLE!!
Have a plan. A practiced, well thought out plan WILL help. No plan at all will invite unneccessary waste of valuable time.
Do some of you think that the bad guy is just suddenly going to burst through your door? If so, you need a lesson in home security. Do what's neccessary to slow the bad guys down enough to enact your PLAN.
If they do get in, let them come to you and your kill zone.
When discussing home security with my customers I ask them this, "If I kick in your door at 2AM, how far will I make it into your home while your still groggy and wondering what just happened?".
The answer is, at least half way. If I get in half way, you stand a very good chance of loosing.
Home defense isn't simply what you carry and what ammo you use. Home defense is how well you have planned and prepared.
Home defense isn't just about guns. Home defense is layered. Lighting, GOOD deadbolts, an alarm system, and firearms in that order will enable you enough time to defend yourself.
If you have not considered the above, you like so many other victims have not taken the matter seriously.
KEEP IT SIMPLE!!
Have a plan. A practiced, well thought out plan WILL help. No plan at all will invite unneccessary waste of valuable time.
Do some of you think that the bad guy is just suddenly going to burst through your door? If so, you need a lesson in home security. Do what's neccessary to slow the bad guys down enough to enact your PLAN.
If they do get in, let them come to you and your kill zone.
When discussing home security with my customers I ask them this, "If I kick in your door at 2AM, how far will I make it into your home while your still groggy and wondering what just happened?".
The answer is, at least half way. If I get in half way, you stand a very good chance of loosing.
Home defense isn't simply what you carry and what ammo you use. Home defense is how well you have planned and prepared.
Home defense isn't just about guns. Home defense is layered. Lighting, GOOD deadbolts, an alarm system, and firearms in that order will enable you enough time to defend yourself.
If you have not considered the above, you like so many other victims have not taken the matter seriously.
armsmaster270
US Veteran
The main point is shoot the perp & don't miss, chances are if you are using good hollowpoints they will stay in the body or after going through the body be stopped by the wall.
If not missing is a requirement we all better keep our guns put up.
venomballistics
Member
ones focus should be on shot placement first .. over penetration second.
if a load is unable to penetrate a wall, you have a useless load that will not penetrate a perp either ...
Unless your objective is to tap him on the shoulder from ten yards, give up this search
if a load is unable to penetrate a wall, you have a useless load that will not penetrate a perp either ...
Unless your objective is to tap him on the shoulder from ten yards, give up this search
szuppo
US Veteran
This thread is comical..... I will continue to use ammo that goes through my walls and provides the best stopping power. All these "what if" scenarios that seem to be the latest buzz in the firearms forums are ridiculous.
raven818
Member
Amen...Amen...Amen.
baccusboy
Member
FYI, a handgun is not my first choice for home defense.
I firmly believe in a small 20 gauge loaded with PDX-1 Defender, or something similar. #3 to 00 buckshot is the perfect choice.
The 20 ga. offers more than adequate firepower to down pretty much anybody. It's lighter than a 12 ga., recoils less, and is easier for the wife to manage, in my case.
I firmly believe in a small 20 gauge loaded with PDX-1 Defender, or something similar. #3 to 00 buckshot is the perfect choice.
The 20 ga. offers more than adequate firepower to down pretty much anybody. It's lighter than a 12 ga., recoils less, and is easier for the wife to manage, in my case.
Springfeildkid585
Member
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I can reasonably expect to put my fist through a piece of drywall, I can not reasonably expect to put my fist through a person. To expect the opposite to be true of a bullet is lunacy.
The title of this thread goes against everything I have been taught or read. In any life threatening situation I have read and been taught that the best and ONLY way to survive is to take out the threat and to do it fast and with authority. I believe this reads with the biggest gun (Thats what I have heard from a few instructors) you can handle and the most reliable ammo built to do just that STOP THE THREAT NOW. Stopping the threat is no different in the home then on the street you have one goal SURVIVE. I am not saying that moving a bookcase or having a plan are bad ideas, but to load my gun down to not penetrate a wall if I miss will get me and my loved ones killed. Why do we buy 40s because we think the 9 may not have enough stopping power but then for home protection we shoot a little 32 so we don't go thru the walls when in the street the chance are that if you miss there are no walls between you and the innocents?
Thats my 2 cents worth and today it was free so take it for what you will.
Cracker57
Thats my 2 cents worth and today it was free so take it for what you will.
Cracker57
dougb1946
Member
Question. Are you legally responsible for slugs downrange in a self defense situation, or is the home invader, committing a felony, given the responsibility for any death?
I may be completely off base (it has happened), but it is my understanding that people committing felonies should get the blame. If you are attacked, you have the right to defend yourself in a reasonable manner. If the only reasonable defense is gunfire, the attacker, being the cause of your action, should be responsible for any death. This would result in a murder charge for the attacker if there is any collateral damage.
This is a nice logical argument, but what is the law?
I may be completely off base (it has happened), but it is my understanding that people committing felonies should get the blame. If you are attacked, you have the right to defend yourself in a reasonable manner. If the only reasonable defense is gunfire, the attacker, being the cause of your action, should be responsible for any death. This would result in a murder charge for the attacker if there is any collateral damage.
This is a nice logical argument, but what is the law?
I read a report that trained police hit their target about 30% of the time in real incidents. That means about 70% of the bullets miss and are free to go wherever.
I'm sure an innocent bystander will be more than happy to obtain a lawyer and sue you for all you have and all you ever will acquire.
But the only other option is to not shoot at all and hope for the best.
You have two options as I see it. Train and use good equipment to decrease the chance innocent people get hurt, or don't defend yourself and take what comes.
I'm sure an innocent bystander will be more than happy to obtain a lawyer and sue you for all you have and all you ever will acquire.
But the only other option is to not shoot at all and hope for the best.
You have two options as I see it. Train and use good equipment to decrease the chance innocent people get hurt, or don't defend yourself and take what comes.
Badkarma 1
US Veteran
I think one would be wiser to stop the immediate threat RIGHT NOW, then worry about where the bullet went! Dale
My house is brick but the doors and windows aren't. Any sort of bullet missing it's mark can make it though those doors or windows. It's only my opinion but I think a short shotgun with #1 buck has a reasonable chance of not only stopping an intruder, but not penetrating walls. It will go through doors if you miss entirely but I feel it's less likely to hurt anyone compared to a .357 round or even 45 ACP +P ammo. At 3:00 in the morning I'm not going to worry about where the doors and windows are before shooting if necessary. From where I'll be awakened to where I'll probably see the perpetrator will be either at the entrance to my bedroom at which time there are barriers that few bullets will go though, like the brick wall or, I'll see him coming down t he hall and behind him as he's coming down the all at me is another brick wall with no windows. That's all I could hope for other than hoping it will never happen.
Chuck1217
Member
KANEWPADDLE GOT MY ATTENTION. i'VE BEEN WORKIN' PRETTY HARD THE LAST 3 YEARS ON
sorry capslpck was on- on self- home-defense. The best I've heard was planning, and we all know we can't pracice for every possibility- we can practice for a hundred but the real thing may not be one of em. As for our homes I think it's much easier. So I worked mainly on- what if I'm in my recliner? sitting at my kitchen table? on the terlit? or in my bed?
I have guns placed where I thikn they'll be most helpful. I use regualr Remington HPs ( I can afford to practice with them so I use them for SD) in my pistols, and have #4 shot in my pump shotgun. I really believe by- considering- thinking through- where the BGs will come in, and where I'll probably be ( it's just me and the wife so only have to worry about one other good guy)...and how I'll react and with what. The best I've seen for shotgun loads is #4, won't over penetrate, and the longest shot in my house would be 36 feet- my Federal #4 rounds spread 8-10 inches at 35 feet. Something I think we should all do- think- practice what we think- and pattern those shotgun sheels.
sorry capslpck was on- on self- home-defense. The best I've heard was planning, and we all know we can't pracice for every possibility- we can practice for a hundred but the real thing may not be one of em. As for our homes I think it's much easier. So I worked mainly on- what if I'm in my recliner? sitting at my kitchen table? on the terlit? or in my bed?
I have guns placed where I thikn they'll be most helpful. I use regualr Remington HPs ( I can afford to practice with them so I use them for SD) in my pistols, and have #4 shot in my pump shotgun. I really believe by- considering- thinking through- where the BGs will come in, and where I'll probably be ( it's just me and the wife so only have to worry about one other good guy)...and how I'll react and with what. The best I've seen for shotgun loads is #4, won't over penetrate, and the longest shot in my house would be 36 feet- my Federal #4 rounds spread 8-10 inches at 35 feet. Something I think we should all do- think- practice what we think- and pattern those shotgun sheels.
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venomballistics
Member
eight months dead and it lives again .... guess Ill add it to his greatest hits compilation.
what I will give him is credit for his willingness to inform, enlighten and teach. This would be of great value in a field the OP actually understands. Its certainly not guns and defense. perhaps dog training would result in a more palatable read.
what I will give him is credit for his willingness to inform, enlighten and teach. This would be of great value in a field the OP actually understands. Its certainly not guns and defense. perhaps dog training would result in a more palatable read.
Over the years I have done a lot of penetration testing.
We have built our own walls and have actually shot in real houses/apts, etc that were going to be torn down.
Truth is most any bullet will go from one room, through the wass into the next. Some will go 3 or 4 rooms it they do not hit a stud.
I once shot a round [during testing] of 45 ACP hardball from about 85 yards that hit the wall of a house [clap board construction] and it came out the back of the house.
What we finally discovered that the safest round for indoor use was a 223 firing 50 or 55 gr Ballsitic Tip bullets.
It has enough thump to protect the shooter and penetrates less than most anything else, normally avialable.
We have built our own walls and have actually shot in real houses/apts, etc that were going to be torn down.
Truth is most any bullet will go from one room, through the wass into the next. Some will go 3 or 4 rooms it they do not hit a stud.
I once shot a round [during testing] of 45 ACP hardball from about 85 yards that hit the wall of a house [clap board construction] and it came out the back of the house.
What we finally discovered that the safest round for indoor use was a 223 firing 50 or 55 gr Ballsitic Tip bullets.
It has enough thump to protect the shooter and penetrates less than most anything else, normally avialable.
tomcatt51
Member
Sirrduck has got you guys again. Slow learners???
jlrhiner
US Veteran
This is what worries me about his info. Someone comes along later and dosen't read all of the posts, but just the first one and assumes he knows what he's talking about. MOST, not all, but MOST of his conclusions are WRONG! He recycles info from questionable sources as gospel.
Take this post, for instance. Guns fire bullets. Even a .22 will go through 1" of plaster board. What is the solution to this searing problem? The same as all his problems. USING A GUN TO DEFEND YOURSELF IS WRONG! (or only to be undertaken by highly trained operators such as himself)
If you are new to firearms, or new to this board, please do a search of his previous posts. Read them, and the responses, before taking his teachings to heart. Don't let him get you hurt.
Now, having had my say, I will address him and his silliness no more.
Take this post, for instance. Guns fire bullets. Even a .22 will go through 1" of plaster board. What is the solution to this searing problem? The same as all his problems. USING A GUN TO DEFEND YOURSELF IS WRONG! (or only to be undertaken by highly trained operators such as himself)
If you are new to firearms, or new to this board, please do a search of his previous posts. Read them, and the responses, before taking his teachings to heart. Don't let him get you hurt.
Now, having had my say, I will address him and his silliness no more.
venomballistics
Member
Nah ... I don't think he believes a gun will save him either. His concept of personal security is so erroneous, he fails from rule one. anyone can track him to his doorstep in under five minutes for his absolute lack of effective personal security .... no one was ever so easy
thndrchiken
Member
Which chapter of guns for dummies is this covered in, I forgot. Duh, now tell us something we didn't know.
RobertJ.
Member
I can't figure out the point of your post. If you've been studying firearms and shooting for any length of time, you'd know that this has already been discussed to death. Maybe you just like to see your words (or someone's!) in print.
I question your motives for all your inane blather concerning self defense. I also notice that you're conspicuously absent from this discussion.
Flame on!
I question your motives for all your inane blather concerning self defense. I also notice that you're conspicuously absent from this discussion.
Flame on!
Fishslayer
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
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