The Armed Citizen - are we over thinking things?

[oldman45]

At true "combat distances" (within 5-10 feet) damn near any caliber will put your assailant down. It might not kill him, but it'll stop him long enough for the average armed citizen to get out of harm's way.

I sure wish you would tell that to the drugged up assailants around here. Many take on several hits and still injure or kill their victims. One guy nicknamed "Cuz" took three direct, rapid hits to the chest from a .357 mag at somewhere around 10 feet. He continued on to fatally stab the victim three times and then attack her husband before finally running out of the store. Happens often just with different calibers and people.

Sure, some people are stopped with one or two shots. As I have mentioned before, some die of their wounds when the wound was not fatal. But a drugged up idiot does not always feel the pain or understand he has been shot. I have seen several committ their bad deed and drive their self to the hospital. Once, back in the late 60's, I was standing next to a guy that was hit in the shoulder. He never knew it until he went inside and we noticed blood coming from his shoulder. Within minutes, he was in pain.

 

[cochise]

I enjoy reading the Armed Citizen. Some stories are very intersting. One thing I seem to notice, there are allot of old folks who are attacked, mostly in their home. I guess that could be one reason smaller clalibars are common.

 

[off road]

Some sage advice here! This is really all the average person needs. Any newbs who ask me, just get a copy of this: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/Puckett/firstgun.pdf

After a lifetime of collecting guns for the zombie appocalypse, more and more I realize that anything with a large frame (what I collected at great cost for many years!) has very very limited application....especially if it can't be carried concealed. I'm not going to be engaging in a running gunfight with anyone (like a LEO might), all I want to do is fire that one shot that saves my life! A little lightweight J-frame in my pocket (M&P340), and a mid-size auto for home defense (Glock 23, or even the little 27), is all I really ever needed. Of course, as always pick your load with great care!

I will qualify this statement and say that I am frequently outdoors in black bear country (not a hunter), so here I will add in a 239NG.

 

[sourdough44]

I'll take a break action single-shot 410 over nothing. Yes, I do there is often overthinking involved.

 

[walnutred]

It is probably because that is what most people own. Around here most homes have at least one firearm. If they only have one it will most likely be a 22LR, 12ga or 38 Special, in that order. Actually if they have two they will probably be a 22 and a 12 ga. The house I grew up in only had two firearms until I started buying my own, a Winchester 67 and a Winchester 97. Dad felt one of the two would cover any shooting he would need to do in Ohio. He eventually added a 22 pistol to his battery though for shooting snakes.

 

[APS]

Just like the news media picks stories that make gun owners look bad, I'm sure the Armed Citizen has cherry picked stories to make us feel better about being armed.

Can't recall ever reading one where the Armed Citizen died or was hurt because their little pop gun failed to stop. So that must mean it never happens.

 

[eyegots2no]

The most important thing is best expressed by some things I hear from time to time:

" left in in the car"
"It is in the back bedroom"

"I don't have mine today"

"I hate to carry when it is hot or I am in very leisurely clothes"

 

[Duke426]

Just like the news media picks stories that make gun owners look bad, I'm sure the Armed Citizen has cherry picked stories to make us feel better about being armed.

Can't recall ever reading one where the Armed Citizen died or was hurt because their little pop gun failed to stop. So that must mean it never happens.

Very good point about only reporting the success stories.

I have no doubt there are plenty of instances where the victim doesn't prevail - where their gun and/or ammunition lets them down or is inadequate for the task at hand.

I guess what surprises me is that there are so many that do succeed, often without the latest and greatest in armament.

 

[Capt Steve]

I own three for CCW: I carry my MP9c the most as that is the gun that I shoot the best and it also conceals nicely. My second option is the S&W 649 (w/CT Laser grips). I don't normally load 357's but it shoots 38 +P's very well. I also have no qualms about carrying my Bersa Thunder .380 and like the Smith's it shoots and conceals well.

The Bersa is the easiest/most comfortable to conceal - Smart Carry or pocket holster (but is the smallest round) but I just like the MP the best. While the Smith's work well in the Smart Carry access is a little slow and a two handed affair. For the 649 Ray at Lobo made me a nice Enhanced Pancake and the MP lives in an S&W De Santis. These provide very good/quick access.

I'll take whichever of the three meet the needs of where I'm going and what I'll be doing best. Perhaps this over thinking a tad but it sure is nice to have options and be able to select the tool that best fits the job at hand. YMMV

 

[greybeard43]

There is a study out that was done by Greg Ellifritz, who is a firearms and defense tractics training officer for a police department in central Ohio. It's called "An alternate look at handgun stopping power". You can probably find it on buckeyefirearms.org. You would have to read it yourself and form your own opinions. What he says to boil it down to a few words is. If you put two shots in the boiler room of an attacker no matter what caliber firearm you are using, He will mostly likely stop his hostile actions. This is for .22 to .45. That would tend to back up what the articles in American Rifleman are saying. Nobody likes to get shot.

 

[Ilike9mm]

Interesting Thread. The part I "overthink": do I have it in me to take the life of another human being?

I know everyone says: "yea, either him or me". However; I am not a combat veteran or LEO. Just a plinker: Arm chair tough guy. When you really get into the **** your heart is beating out of your chest, adrenaline pumping...you are scared! Anyone who says they aren't, is lying. Yunno?

 

[feralmerril]

I suppose if you have the means, if someone is takeing a bead on you or trying to kill a loved one, you will come through.

 

[old curmudgeon]

Remember that a .22 or a .38 in the right place will stop a BG.

However, the human body is large enough that you can fill one full of holes and not hit a vital organ.

That is why some, like Ayoob, like the larger calibers. A shot to the lower torso with a .22 will make a hole.

The same shot with a .44 mag will break the pelvis and no matter how high the BG is on drugs, a broken pelvis will cause him to collapse. His legs will not work. He is totally out of action.


In one of Ayoob's writings, he even recommends shooting at the lower body to break bones.

That is the method used in defending against the big bears. Break shoulder bones and they can not get to you to eat you.


So lots of different theories.

However it is obvious that it is easier to hit the pelvis with a .45 than to shoot a BG in the eye with a .22.

Especially if there is a lot of fast motion.

 

[Rule 303]

I pretty much live by this in four years in the military, two in ground combat, and almost 34 years in LE:

Shot Placement is the King, Caliber is the Queen, Capacity is the Prince, the Number of rounds you
put into the Target is the Princess and the quality of the Gun is the Joker.

Rule 303

 

[Out West]

When you get right down to it, self-defense preparedness is nothing more than the assembling of various tools and skills in an attempt to satisfy what we personally feel is an acceptable level of personal safety. So with that in mind, it's pretty safe to reach the conclusion that each and every piece of equipment we select is simply a choice for what we hope/believe is an incremental gain in that personal safety. It is why we choose to carry a weapon over bare fists, a blade over a can of Mace, and inevitably, a gun over a blade.

IMO, choosing a "more capable" caliber is a perfectly natural extension of this selection process. It stands to reason that a person would want to select the most effective tool he/she can that meets/exceeds the given requirements of the situation. That said, there are some that certainly seem to want to over-complicate the process.

Over complicate. Huh?

Out West

 

[oldman45]

Interesting Thread. The part I "overthink": do I have it in me to take the life of another human being?

I know everyone says: "yea, either him or me". However; I am not a combat veteran or LEO. Just a plinker: Arm chair tough guy. When you really get into the **** your heart is beating out of your chest, adrenaline pumping...you are scared! Anyone who says they aren't, is lying. Yunno?

Great statement. In addition to taking a life, there is the living with it afterward, walking around asking yourself if there was anything you would have done differently. Seeing the reports of the kids the deceased had, reading about the funeral and much more works on the mind.

Granted, the actions of the deceased caused his demise but ask any railroad engineer if he feels good about the people in the car his train struck and killed. LEO gets counseling after every shooting. It is needed.

Pulling a trigger on another human being is the most important decision one will possibly ever make.

 

[son-of-a-gun]

Training and gear selection are important...

Especially to those that manufacture and/or sell said training and gear!

 

[Jellybean]

Didn't help the rabbit. (And he had 4 of 'em)

Absolutely! History has shown time and again that those that rely solely on luck has an even worse survival rate than those that over complicate their preparations.

The rabbits survival rig had four attachment points and he chose four talismans. An over complicator with four points would choose two guns, extra ammo and a can of "Zombie-B-Gon". But a well thought out survival rig with four attachment points would have something like a good quality handgun, a quality knife, one rabbits foot and an ice cold beer.

 

[feralmerril]

I had a tough acting uncle that was in the 82nd in ww2. He was decorated, two purple hearts, I think 6 bronze and a silver star. He was a souvineer hunter and brought back a lot of personnal stuff he took off the enemy such as watchs, rings, their medals and epilets, 4 handguns etc. He tried to act like the war didnt affect him but it did big time. He never married and ultimately committed suicide.

 

[cshoff]

Over complicate. Huh?

Out West

Actually, I thought the post I made was pretty simply stated. Decision making based on a perceived need is a natural, normal, human process. Dwelling on the minutia of details between one 115 grn. 9mm premium defense load and another 115 grn. 9mm premium defense load, however, can quickly over-complicate the process to the point of diminishing returns.