The Armed Citizen - are we over thinking things?

[oldman45]

Yeah, a .45 may not kill a guy, but he damn sure won't wanna get up!

A deputy I work with shot a BG in the throat with a .45 out of a Colt Combat Commander at about 7-10 yards. He survived, went to court, got convicted, sentenced to 10 years, out on the streets today. His voice is a little more distorted than it used to be, but he's alive and well.

The deputy said when he shot him, he immediately hit the ground, moaning and groaning, cussing the deputy, but he NEVER made any attempt to get up off the ground and continue his attack.

I agree and it is nice someone else here has evidence of caliber choice. Caliber does matter. A firecracker will cause one to lose a finger but a stick of dynamite will cause instant body shreadding.

Over the last 38 yrs, I may have seen a dozen shootings with a .45. The vast majority of those fell instantly and about 1/3 died. We are not talking about multiple hits either. I have seen many shot and never even go to the hospital with smaller calibers.

 

[hatt]

I have seen many shot and never even go to the hospital with smaller calibers.

Goodness, where do you come up with some of this stuff.

 

[daveh75]

So are the strategically placed 7.62mm Mini-guns, gas masks for the family because of the OC in the sprinkler system, and of course kevlar for all members of the family hidden in plain sight over thinking the situation????

 

[JOHNA01374]

I'm sure we over think this. I'm a 9mm guy as I feel today's ammo is more than capable of doing the job. Problem comes when you are not accurate with that 9mm. My GF for instance can't hit a full sized silhouette at 21ft with my P226 9mm but she can make 10 inch groups with my LCP in .380 and 5 inch groups with my .22

I think the answer is pretty clear as to which caliber she carries. I'd rather her hit with .380 or .22 than miss with 9mm and believe me..The first time she missed all 15 with the Sig...

 

[oldman45]

Goodness, where do you come up with some of this stuff.

Just go with any investigator for a few weeks. You can see for yourself. Talk to doctors that work trauma centers and let them tell you.
I am not going to say any caliber is bad. I say some calibers are better than others. The .45acp is the best I can carry by law in this sate. If there was a larger one that would be legal I would carry it.

Some people say they cannot shoot larger calibers but the real reason they do not is they have not shot them enough to become proficient wth them. If someone is comfortable with a smaller caliber, then so be it but those people usually do not work with crime and in the ghettos.

 

[oldman45]

I'm sure we over think this. I'm a 9mm guy as I feel today's ammo is more than capable of doing the job. Problem comes when you are not accurate with that 9mm. My GF for instance can't hit a full sized silhouette at 21ft with my P226 9mm but she can make 10 inch groups with my LCP in .380 and 5 inch groups with my .22

I think the answer is pretty clear as to which caliber she carries. I'd rather her hit with .380 or .22 than miss with 9mm and believe me..The first time she missed all 15 with the Sig...

I agree with this to a point. The issue is those groups are being shot at paper targets that are not being aggressive or shooting back. Drug induced people do not always feel pain from shots when hit. Some larger people do not feel smaller hits. Many police shootings take place within 20 feet without anyone being struck. Yet the officers are trained well on the range and qualify often but miss under stress. One popular video shows two officers firing at distances closer to 15 feet at two subjects and nobody was hit on either side.

A miss with a cannon is the same as a miss with a .22 but a hit with a cannon will be more effective than a hit with a .22 and a lot more likely to stop aggression.

Now for the weird example. I have a 30 yr old daughter that weighs 120 lbs and is 5'7". She shoots with me fairly often. Her shooting with a S&W 422 sucks. Same with a Model 36 snubbie. Shooting my S&W 1911 is not any better. A 9mm Glock in her hands is useless. Yet she takes my model 66 using JHP full loads and she can rip the center out of a target at 30 feet. It does not make any sense that the 36 and 66 are similar guns but she does better with the 66 even though the load is stronger. With her, the caliber is the difference. With others, it may be the gun that is the difference. Finding the right combination is key but then add stress and it changes things.

Next time you are with your shooting partner, add stress. Let them pick the gun up and fire four rounds under a five second time limit. The results may suprise you.

 

[hatt]

Just go with any investigator for a few weeks. You can see for yourself. Talk to doctors that work trauma centers and let them tell you.
I am not going to say any caliber is bad. I say some calibers are better than others. The .45acp is the best I can carry by law in this sate. If there was a larger one that would be legal I would carry it.

Some people say they cannot shoot larger calibers but the real reason they do not is they have not shot them enough to become proficient wth them. If someone is comfortable with a smaller caliber, then so be it but those people usually do not work with crime and in the ghettos.

LOL. The doctors at the trauma center aren't going to be able to tell me about the guys who took good hits and didn't even need medical care.

Also, I'm going to cost you some money because you can certainly get something bigger. You can even get it in a 1911 platform. .50 GI! You're gonna get killed carrying that feeble .45 ACP.

 

[oldman45]

LOL. The doctors at the trauma center aren't going to be able to tell me about the guys who took good hits and didn't even need medical care.

Also, I'm going to cost you some money because you can certainly get something bigger. You can even get it in a 1911 platform. .50 GI! You're gonna get killed carrying that feeble .45 ACP.

Well, I will say that many a dead person was carried to a trauma center before being pronounced deceased. The area I cover has about 3 homicides during the avg week. Since June alone, we have seen four husbands (one being a pastor of a church and head of an anti violence group) have fatally shot their wives and then took their own life. I think the area has about 70 homicides this year and is only a quarter million people.

As to costing me money, do not feel bad about that. Many people already cost me money.

The laws in many states limit the carrying of a concealed weapon to no larger than .45acp. Louisiana is one of those states.

 

[Out West]

Actually, I thought the post I made was pretty simply stated. Decision making based on a perceived need is a natural, normal, human process. Dwelling on the minutia of details between one 115 grn. 9mm premium defense load and another 115 grn. 9mm premium defense load, however, can quickly over-complicate the process to the point of diminishing returns.

.

I agree with everything you said. I was teasing a bit and I apologize.

Out
West

 

[greybeard43]

Well, I will say that many a dead person was carried to a trauma center before being pronounced deceased. The area I cover has about 3 homicides during the avg week. Since June alone, we have seen four husbands (one being a pastor of a church and head of an anti violence group) have fatally shot their wives and then took their own life. I think the area has about 70 homicides this year and is only a quarter million people.

As to costing me money, do not feel bad about that. Many people already cost me money.

The laws in many states limit the carrying of a concealed weapon to no larger than .45acp. Louisiana is one of those states.

a 10MM is smaller in diameter than a .45 but one heck of a lot more powerful. Why don't you carry one of those? Going by diameter is really stupid if you ask me. That is like saying that the .45 acp is a magic bullet. Tell that to the Jacksonville Fl police officer that was shot multiple times by one and finally killed the BG with his 9mm glock. He is back on duty. Find me a .45 acp that weighs less than a pound and will fit in my pocket in a Desantis nemasis holster and won't break my wrist when I shoot it and I'll buy and carry it. My .45 makes my pants want to fall down and is really not that easy to conceal. The whole idea is "concealed carry" not calling attention to yourself always tugging your pants up and clunking when you hit against something. I would assume you are a LEO and don't worry about stuff liike that.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Well, I will say that many a dead person was carried to a trauma center before being pronounced deceased. The area I cover has about 3 homicides during the avg week. Since June alone, we have seen four husbands (one being a pastor of a church and head of an anti violence group) have fatally shot their wives and then took their own life. I think the area has about 70 homicides this year and is only a quarter million people.

When I read about what you face weekly it makes me realize I was semi-retired during my career as a LEO. You have more homicides in a week then I did in any 2 year period. I can understand your choice of weapons.

 

[mc5aw]

A number of years ago, I attended a leading firearms school for a defense handgun course. After a week of intense training and practice, the final exercise involved room clearing in a multi-floor structure. Each student went through the building solo, shadowed by a single instructor. I was armed with a SIG 228 9mm, and was doing extremely well. My last room, I opened the door and was faced with a BG target at roughly 10'. All of the targets were life size cardboard cutouts mounted with magnet cords. Sufficient bullet impact would cause the magnet to disengage and the target to drop, signifying a "kill" shot. I got on sight, and fired five rapid shots to the chest. The target didn't move. I immediately put four more in the head, but to no avail. At that point, my instructor stopped the action and we discussed caliber impact and effectiveness. He had me step back, then drew his 1911 and fired one .45 round into the torso of the target ... it dropped instantly. That's the most valuable lesson I learned from the course, and it was sobering to experience it first hand.

 

[greybeard43]

The problem I see with that is that it does not take into account state of mind of the BG. Also, you probably could have knocked it down with a well thrown rock. They do not recommend the .45 acp for bear defense but the 10mm is recommended.(last resort only) A .357 magnum round also hits quite hard compared to the .45 acp. Yes they replaced the .38 special with it long ago in the Philippines for a manstopper. The .45 colt also gets the job done. The .44 magnum is over kill but a smaller diameter bullet than the .45. I will restate my assertion that the .45 acp is not a magic bullet. I am not a big fan of the 9mm but the .357 sig is a good choice if you have to have a 9.

 

[edprof]

"I have always thought about the put down of the .380 and .38 as bad self defense rounds as would any of us really stand in front of a person with one of these and let them shoot at us. I think getting as good as we can with our chosen weapon that we can have with us all the time is the best gun. Stack the deck in our favor with the best we can but training is truly the key in my opinion. Best, Frank"

I like his answer. .38 special +P and 9mm are fine for me, plus training so I can get on target with the FIRST round.

 

[oldman45]

When I read about what you face weekly it makes me realize I was semi-retired during my career as a LEO. You have more homicides in a week then I did in any 2 year period. I can understand your choice of weapons.

Steve, what most do not understand is I do not patrol the streets. I only reconstruct crime and accident scenes. If you are not dead or expected to die within 10 days, I am not going to be seeing you or the place you were. I cover an area about 125 miles sq. and get called out as needed. When not doing anything else, I serve papers. It was what I went to school for and all I have done for many years. I see both good and bad guys shot. I see what they were shot with and am in the court when trial day comes testifying right along with the coroner, the detectives and the witnesses.

As to the choice of weapon, I have carried everything in the last 38 yyrs from 38spc to .357mag to 9mm to .40S&W and .45acp. This crapola about recoil from a .45 or a .40 was discussed yesterday on GunTalk radio. As they said, recoil is a perceived mental reaction that may be magnified by incorrect gun holding. There are small frame petite women that shoot competition with .45acp and never bat an eye shooting hundreds of rounds per day. Then a 170 pound guy complains that recoil of a .40S&W is too harsh.

The truth is caliber is important. Read the papers to see how many people are shot but drive their own self to the hospital. Since 9mm is so popular with gangbangers and drug dealers, it is the most commonly used weapon on those seeking hospital treatment. Yes, a .22 will kill but so will a brick, baseball bat or speeding car. Bullet placement is great but more difficult under stress. Caliber choice works best when shots may be marginal but works perfect with perfect shots.

 

[old curmudgeon]

To oldman45:

I am always amused at the number of posters with zero real life experience who tell the experts they are wrong.

Thanks for giving us a look into the real world.

 

[Lightfoot4]

While I certainly believe that bigger is better, and if given a choice in a perfect world of which caliber I want to shoot a bad guy with, I'd pick the biggest available. However, any gun is better than no gun. The crack of a revolver and the sting of a .22 caliber bullet will deter most bad guys from carrying on. Even if you don't knock them down, most will know they have been shot, or are getting shot at, and will know you're defending yourself.

 

[celticfisherman]

The truth is caliber is important. Read the papers to see how many people are shot but drive their own self to the hospital. Since 9mm is so popular with gangbangers and drug dealers, it is the most commonly used weapon on those seeking hospital treatment. Yes, a .22 will kill but so will a brick, baseball bat or speeding car. Bullet placement is great but more difficult under stress. Caliber choice works best when shots may be marginal but works perfect with perfect shots.

That's well said. I am a proponent of "the gun you will have with you". But that is entirely true and a good point. I tend to carry a small gun though because of how I dress and my daily life.

 

[amazingflapjack]

Old man-amen. Many of these self-home defense questions on the forum really look like someone is trying to set a trap to shoot somebody. The best defence preparedness is how to aviod confrontation. Killing another human being is not easy for a large majority of the population. The book "On Killing" written by a former Ranger Company Commander in Viet Nam-who became a Psychologist-wrote this incredible book. He spends a lot of time talking about all of the considerations involved when one human being kills another. One of the most profound pieces of research he uses is the aftermath of the battle of Gettysburg during the Civil War, where 1700 un-fired muzzle loading rifles were policed up after the battle. Some of them had been reloaded and NOT fired many times. When you think about how battle was conducted in those times, you can see these guys walking along in an online assault-faking it-going through the motions of reloading, and then shouldering their gun to act like they were firing it. Given that these guns were left in the field, it's no reach to assume that those who carried them were killed or wounded, prefering that to shooting another human being. It ain't like the movies guys. I really appreciate this thread, thank you. Flapjack

Dave Grossman-the author of the book I sigted above, was a Ranger, and a Lt. Colonel, but NOT a Viet Nam Veteran, as I posted above. A forum member sent me a message and got me straightened out, hats off to him. I highly recommend Col. Grossman's book. Flapjack.

 

[oldman45]

If one will study WWII events, they will find the German soldiers complained they were shooting Americans several times with their 9mm Lugers and the soldiers kept firing with their 1911 guns in .45acp killing the Germans. Germans wanted guns of the caliber the US troops were using. The .45acp proved to be effective man stoppers in many military actions.

I will also mention that some have been killed with bb guns but I would not carry one with the expectation that it will be a good man stopper. In Feb, 2010, I was in a training class hosted by State Police officers. They constantly referred to the smaller calibers such as .22 and 9mm as being "mouse guns." I do not consider the 9mm as being a mouse gun but it is on the light side.

The popularity of the 9mm began with their high capacity ability. The reason for the need of high capacity was due to trading accuracy for capacity. The need for accuracy outweighs the desire for high capacity. More than once, innocent people were struck by the missed shots from high capacity weapons. The same happens with larger calibers but not so much since larger calibers are usually fired by more proficient shooters and the intended targets will usually stop aggression with the first hit.

While being a proponent of the .45acp, there are other good calibers as well. In my experiences and those of others, the .45acp remains a good man stopper while having a capacity somewhat less than the smaller calibers.