The Armed Citizen - are we over thinking things?

In Feb, 2010, I was in a training class hosted by State Police officers. They constantly referred to the smaller calibers such as .22 and 9mm as being "mouse guns." I do not consider the 9mm as being a mouse gun but it is on the light side.

I personally have a problem with that. Macho attitudes like this get people killed. You should carry the gun you are comfortable with. Plus all kinds are capable of killing. Isn't that a safety rule... It was what I was taught when I started shooting.
 
All of the recognized service calibers work or fail about the same. Hand guns are anemic weapons-all of them. Choose the pistol/caliber you shoot the best and practice. Shot placement is the key. The edge will always be with the larger/more powerful caliber but it is a very slight edge. I will always take capacity over having slightly larger bullets with less continuity of fire. Above all, choose what works best for you and what gives you confidence. Bill
 
I personally have a problem with that. Macho attitudes like this get people killed. You should carry the gun you are comfortable with. Plus all kinds are capable of killing. Isn't that a safety rule... It was what I was taught when I started shooting.

Instead of constantly tearing apart the police, try to learn something. All guns can kill, with larger calibers you are talking about stopping power. When you defend your life you want to stop the perps actions, you do not want to kill them.

A well placed shot with a 22 may kill instantly, or you will have to wait for them to bleed out. A larger caliber may drop the subject, preventing them from further attacking. Shoot a healthy non combative victim with a 22 and they may go right down. Shoot an enraged crack head and that same 22 round may have no immediate stopping effect.

I am quite comfortable with a 38 or a 9, but I do like the 45.

M1911 pistol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
All of the recognized service calibers work or fail about the same.

I think that the majority of folks out there don't know that this is the case.

In whichever world our minds are in, we will tend to believe the things that support our stances, and conveniently forget (or not pass along) the things that perhaps don't.

Like in the world of the anti gunner, firearms have never been used to protect people, just to hurt them.
 
Instead of constantly tearing apart the police, try to learn something. All guns can kill, with larger calibers you are talking about stopping power. When you defend your life you want to stop the perps actions, you do not want to kill them.

A well placed shot with a 22 may kill instantly, or you will have to wait for them to bleed out. A larger caliber may drop the subject, preventing them from further attacking. Shoot a healthy non combative victim with a 22 and they may go right down. Shoot an enraged crack head and that same 22 round may have no immediate stopping effect.

I am quite comfortable with a 38 or a 9, but I do like the 45.

M1911 pistol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm sorry... Where did I tear apart the police? Might want to read what I said...

Also what did I say about caliber size other than I was offended by the "mouse gun" and belittling calibers.
 
All of the recognized service calibers work or fail about the same. Hand guns are anemic weapons-all of them.

Absolutely. That's just one more reason why these "stopping power" debates are so meaningless. Shot placement is 90% of the equation, and sufficient penetration is 9.5%. The other 0.5% of the equation is made up of the 0.10" difference in diameter between the 9mm and .45ACP bullets and the minor differences between one type of premium defense hollow point over the other, in addition to the debatable relevance either of them would have on the outcome of a given defensive shooting encounter. We're talking handguns here, not artillery.

Choose the pistol/caliber you shoot the best and practice. Shot placement is the key. The edge will always be with the larger/more powerful caliber but it is a very slight edge. I will always take capacity over having slightly larger bullets with less continuity of fire. Above all, choose what works best for you and what gives you confidence. Bill

I would tend to agree, though I do have some MINIMUM size calibers that I will not go under in my EDC guns.
 
There are many organizations that devote a great deal of time and research to select a handgun cailber intended to stop an aggressive individual. I'm not aware of any domestic department/organization that has selected a caliber smaller than 9mm. Most have migrated to the .40 caliber. Few select the .45 caliber.

The research points to the .40 as being a good compromise of power, capacity and control. Tradeoffs and compromises are a part of everyday life. If you pick something in the range of 9mm to .45 cal, you should worry more about becoming proficient with your choice, rather than fretting over the size of your round.

whw
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman45

In Feb, 2010, I was in a training class hosted by State Police officers. They constantly referred to the smaller calibers such as .22 and 9mm as being "mouse guns." I do not consider the 9mm as being a mouse gun but it is on the light side.


I personally have a problem with that. Macho attitudes like this get people killed. You should carry the gun you are comfortable with. Plus all kinds are capable of killing. Isn't that a safety rule... It was what I was taught when I started shooting.


Here you are taking shots at the police Celtic. On other posts you said cops should learn to shoot revolvers and not the latest glock/1911 and maybe they would be more polite, and not be robo cops.

It is a sum of all your posts that you knock police. Most police, especially members of this forum want citizens to be armed. I personally feel that every qualified citizen should have a concealed carry permit like a drivers' license that should be good in all 50 States.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman45

In Feb, 2010, I was in a training class hosted by State Police officers. They constantly referred to the smaller calibers such as .22 and 9mm as being "mouse guns." I do not consider the 9mm as being a mouse gun but it is on the light side.


I personally have a problem with that. Macho attitudes like this get people killed. You should carry the gun you are comfortable with. Plus all kinds are capable of killing. Isn't that a safety rule... It was what I was taught when I started shooting.


Here you are taking shots at the police Celtic. On other posts you said cops should learn to shoot revolvers and not the latest glock/1911 and maybe they would be more polite, and not be robo cops.

It is a sum of all your posts that you knock police. Most police, especially members of this forum want citizens to be armed. I personally feel that every qualified citizen should have a concealed carry permit like a drivers' license that should be good in all 50 States.

Might want to learn to use the quote part of this forum.

I'm still not knocking them. I stand by all I've said. Just a few weeks ago in NY 57 (at least that was in the story I listened to on the news) shots were fired at a guy by the police... NOT one hit. Didn't even find the guy... Probably has something to do with not being able to shoot. Gun advancements and more capacity (something that is stated over and over again on this forum) don't make up for the inability to shoot.

Yes. I believe that if you treat people like criminals a good portion of them are going to act like it. So yes I am a bit tired of the full body armor, BDU, crew cut cop. I believe (along with mind you a more than sizeable portion of law enforcement) that if cops got back to real police work and training things would be better. Along with acting like POLICE used to.

So yes... I am critical. I have very right to be. With my taxes paying for all this I have a right to be critical. Sorry if it happens to offend your delicate sensibilities... But it is my right.

And just for noting this:

The first quote on this was not even in reference to a cop but in reference to an attitude. Please PAY ATTENTION!

And in reality the very idea that you have to obtain a CCW permit should offend everyone.

And the idea that I am bashing cops is one that is personally offensive to me. A number of my close friends are police officers and SDs. A good many more are servicemen in several of the branches. I have nothing but respect for them. However... That does not mean I am to blindly support them.
 
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There are always extremes in how bullets perform. I don't know if anyone reads Allen Jones in American Handgunner. He worked in a large city Texas ballistics lab for a long time and has other experience as well. He is the reason I buy that magazine. Anyway, he had a column not too long ago where he talked about unusual shooting situations. The one that stayed with me was where a woman had sworn out a warrant to keep some dude away from her-X boy friend I think-bad actor. Anyway, he comes over to her place and threatens her, of course. She is terrified-I think the guy had already beat her up. So she has an anchient single shot-bolt action rifle that was intended for some kind of .22 caliber skeet shooting. I know, it was a new one on me too. She has one bullet, also designed for this same sport, a .22 cal round that has a projectile made of some kind of compressed stuff that evidently acted like a mini shotgun round in this skeet deal, but that's all she had. So the guy is really about to come through the door, and she lets him have what she has-this granulated deal-right through the door. By this time, Jones is looking at the guys body at the lab, scratching his head with both hands, because the report says one shot fired, but the guy's got two holes in his chest. The first on the sceen comes in and fills out some more questions and adds some more to this incredible deal. The bullet split in half, and both halves evidently were fatal hits. The guy-who was reportedly quite large-was dead right there. Devine providence? That is a factor you know.

Now-The .45 ACP-In 1968 I saw this reveered round do two completely different things in the same incident. This was in a Liquor store in southern California. The old man who owned it had been shot in a hold up a few years before this, almost died, spent a long time recooperating, and when he went back to work, he hired only people proficient with firearms to work at his big modern store. It was long and narrow, with one door in and out-up by the cash register. Of course, the cashier was armed, and in this case, a 1911 in 45 ACP. But he also had a guy who walked around looking out through the cold cases with a rifle! Anyway, these two dudes came in separately, one going to the back of the store. while the other one loitered around up by Mr. Cash box, and proceeded to pull what was later determined to be a blank gun, pointed it at the cashier, and snapped off a couple of blank rounds at him. In response to this, the cashier drew his 1911, and shot this guy, at about arms length, in the chin, and just above one eye, basically removing his head, for all intents and purposes. At this, the other evil genious commences to run up the isle toward the cash register-there really wasn't many choices for him, but of those available, this was the worst. Of course, this is all happening fast, and as the clerk has completed shot # 2, he naturally lifts his weapon slightly, aiming at the now running, screaming, and shooting "co-conspiritor," who has an actual firearm-a .32, that he is discharging, mostly, into the now mostly headless body of his partner. The clerk puts two in him somewhere in the chest area-probably a classic double tap. He spins around, and exits through the door, gets in his car, and drives away!! The first cop on the sceen is a guy who hangs out in the same beer joint I do, and he, as well as myself, because I was staying accross the street, heard the shots. They found the second guy, alive. My cop buddy said that both of my fists would have fit in the hole in his back. He was paralized from there down-but alive. They found a very large quanity of hard drugs when they found this guy, a goodly portion of which was in these two. That's why he lived-no shock. Shock is what kills most shooting victims, especially those with not critical hits. They fouind that there were a "connect the dots" string of these hold ups that afternoon-6 I think. At one of them, the store employee yelled at them and they laughed and, ran out the door. When I finally walked accross the street, someone had thrown a 4X4 gause pad in this large pile of brains. The head hit was what it took to stop the guy, but the other guy "walked away" shot with the same gun. Just goes to show... Flapjack
 
Talk about rights...that you should tell anyone what they should think/believe is patently offensive. It is my right to form my own thoughts...bear in mind that freedom of speech is the 1st Amendment...and even it has restrictions.

Be safe.

... Sorry if it happens to offend your delicate sensibilities... But it is my right. (Emphasis added.)

...

And in reality the very idea that you have to obtain a CCW permit should offend everyone.
 
I believe in CCW permits. I think every American should have one. I think to get one you should have to take a safety course. It isn't the 1700's anymore, we live in sheetrock Condo's now. Do you want some moron to be able to buy a gun and put a round into your kids bedroom?

I would want a mental health check before you get a permit. IE, that you have never been insitutionalized, not have to go before some wacked out psychiatrist. I want a permit, so that when someone goes to a gun store to buy a gun, the guy behind the counter knows this person has been vetted.

To drive a car you need a license. I do not think you should have to jump through hoops, unless you are a felon and a mental patient you should get a permit. To be a cop and carry a gun, you have to be vetted. If a cop killed someone for no reason, the first thing you would say is "How did he get this job?".

Call me weird, but I think a felon should be able to have a gun in his house, but not carry outside. If you stole a car 20 years ago and never got into trouble since, you do not have a right to protect your home?

CCW permits should be shall issue and good through all 50 States.
 
I believe in CCW permits. I think every American should have one. I think to get one you should have to take a safety course. It isn't the 1700's anymore, we live in sheetrock Condo's now. Do you want some moron to be able to buy a gun and put a round into your kids bedroom?

I would want a mental health check before you get a permit. IE, that you have never been insitutionalized, not have to go before some wacked out psychiatrist. I want a permit, so that when someone goes to a gun store to buy a gun, the guy behind the counter knows this person has been vetted.

To drive a car you need a license. I do not think you should have to jump through hoops, unless you are a felon and a mental patient you should get a permit. To be a cop and carry a gun, you have to be vetted. If a cop killed someone for no reason, the first thing you would say is "How did he get this job?".

Call me weird, but I think a felon should be able to have a gun in his house, but not carry outside. If you stole a car 20 years ago and never got into trouble since, you do not have a right to protect your home?

CCW permits should be shall issue and good through all 50 States.

Some laws allow felons to have guns. Louisiana lets felons own guns, as long as the gun is a muzzle loader.

Then there is expungement of felony convictions. Few felons ever do go through this, likely due to cost or effort.

From past experience, I would bet over 90% of all felons on the streets have a firearm in their home. A fair percentage of them get arrested for felon in possession of a firearm while carrying illegally. As best I remember, G. Gordon Liddy is a felon but there are many guns in the home, supposedly in a safe and owned by his wife. All legal.
 
Some laws allow felons to have guns. Louisiana lets felons own guns, as long as the gun is a muzzle loader.

Then there is expungement of felony convictions. Few felons ever do go through this, likely due to cost or effort.

From past experience, I would bet over 90% of all felons on the streets have a firearm in their home. A fair percentage of them get arrested for felon in possession of a firearm while carrying illegally. As best I remember, G. Gordon Liddy is a felon but there are many guns in the home, supposedly in a safe and owned by his wife. All legal.

And Gordon Liddy's example opens up another issue.

Although his crime was a felony, it was a non violent felony and it is wrong for him to be denied the right to own a means of self protection.

Had he shot up a bank and a teller or two, it would be a different matter.
 
I believe in CCW permits. I think every American should have one. I think to get one you should have to take a safety course. It isn't the 1700's anymore, we live in sheetrock Condo's now. Do you want some moron to be able to buy a gun and put a round into your kids bedroom?

I would want a mental health check before you get a permit. IE, that you have never been insitutionalized, not have to go before some wacked out psychiatrist. I want a permit, so that when someone goes to a gun store to buy a gun, the guy behind the counter knows this person has been vetted.

To drive a car you need a license. I do not think you should have to jump through hoops, unless you are a felon and a mental patient you should get a permit. To be a cop and carry a gun, you have to be vetted. If a cop killed someone for no reason, the first thing you would say is "How did he get this job?".

Call me weird, but I think a felon should be able to have a gun in his house, but not carry outside. If you stole a car 20 years ago and never got into trouble since, you do not have a right to protect your home?

CCW permits should be shall issue and good through all 50 States.


Well, yes and no.

Cars are not mentioned in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

That is not because cars were undreamed of in that day, it was because the Constitution is not about things at all. It is about keeping the government from becoming a monster that takes away our freedom.

Every single idea in it is directed toward restricting government.

Now that said, cars are more dangerous by far than guns and yet the laws regarding the issuance of drivers licenses is not nearly so restrictive.

I agree that there should be some form of licensing, but not because of dry walls. I think that there should be a requirement to understand the laws regarding self defense and the defense of property just as one must learn the traffic signs, etc.

I am amazed at the number of posts on these forums where people post that they will shoot anyone that comes into their yard to steal, etc.
Either these posters are not CCW or in a state with laws that drastically differ from the law in this state or are totally ignorant of the law.

In any case, they are a danger.
 
I am amazed at the number of posts on these forums where people post that they will shoot anyone that comes into their yard to steal, etc
In any case, they are a danger.

I'm not amazed.
They ARE a danger, imo.

Don't steal my tomato's, I'll kill yer!
 
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Yep , anything less than a .45 or something 'magnum' will only anger an attacker or robber.

Much like the 30-30 , .300 Savage and 35 Remington and other great hunting rounds are obsolete for todays super game animals. Everyone knows ya need a magnum to hunt whitetail deer with.

I also laugh when I read a 9mm is insufficiant , but a .38 Special is fine.
 
I believe in CCW permits. I think every American should have one. I think to get one you should have to take a safety course. It isn't the 1700's anymore, we live in sheetrock Condo's now. Do you want some moron to be able to buy a gun and put a round into your kids bedroom?

A "safety course" or any other type of training course, will never be able to prevent something like that from happening.

I would want a mental health check before you get a permit. IE, that you have never been insitutionalized, not have to go before some wacked out psychiatrist. I want a permit, so that when someone goes to a gun store to buy a gun, the guy behind the counter knows this person has been vetted.

We already have background checks in place for folks who wish to buy a firearm from a FFL holder. They are mandated by federal law. That said, law abiding adult individuals have always been, and should always be, free to engage in commerce with each other without government interference. In this country, we don't PRESUME everyone is a criminal or a psychotic mental case without cause. Rather, we believe in FREEDOM whereby we don't preemptively punish people without cause.

I find it funny that a gun is a simple machine just like a sewing machine or a cordless drill, yet I've yet to see anyone advocate for a background check and mental health check for folks who go to Walmart to buy either of those. An illogical fear of guns is NOT a good reason to infringe on the rights of the law abiding.

To drive a car you need a license.

You have no second amendment right to drive a car. Furthermore, you can operate a motor vehicle on your private property without a license or permit of any kind, yet you seem to want to make people get a background check and a permit just to own a gun in their own home. That is not very consistent.

I do not think you should have to jump through hoops, unless you are a felon and a mental patient you should get a permit. To be a cop and carry a gun, you have to be vetted. If a cop killed someone for no reason, the first thing you would say is "How did he get this job?".

There are MANY employers who require prospective employees to undergo a background check and mental health evaluations as a condition of employment, for many different reasons. A police officer isn't subjected to those procedures because he/she will be carrying a gun. He/she undergoes those procedures because he/she will be dealing with PEOPLE under very stressful and sensitive situations and because he/she will be expected to use a lot of personal discretion and judgment in his/her day to day job duties. Otherwise, a police officer can own/buy/carry a firearm under the same laws that everyone else can.

Call me weird, but I think a felon should be able to have a gun in his house, but not carry outside. If you stole a car 20 years ago and never got into trouble since, you do not have a right to protect your home?

I would agree but go even a step further and say that a felon who has served his/her time and paid his/her debt to society should have all of his/her rights restored. If we cannot trust a person being released from prison to live peacefully amongst society, then WE SHOULDN'T BE RELEASING THEM FROM PRISON.

CCW permits should be shall issue and good through all 50 States.

I would oppose any kind of federal legislation that had anything at all to do with state issued CCW permits.
 
Tactical Rabbits Foot

Caliber wars, auto vs. revolver, magazine capacity and etc. are here because of the gun rags, if they don't sell the writers, editors and etc. don't eat.

There are things that might give you an edge over others, but you are absolutely correct, luck is pretty much the deciding factor. One thing most people just don't get is how much the 'other guy' plays into the equation, and you have no control over him so you might want to carry a tactical rabbits foot every where you go.

None of my regular websites have a listing for this! Where are you guys buying your tactical rabbit feets at?:D
 
I believe in CCW permits. I think every American should have one. I think to get one you should have to take a safety course. It isn't the 1700's anymore, we live in sheetrock Condo's now. Do you want some moron to be able to buy a gun and put a round into your kids bedroom?

I would want a mental health check before you get a permit. IE, that you have never been insitutionalized, not have to go before some wacked out psychiatrist. I want a permit, so that when someone goes to a gun store to buy a gun, the guy behind the counter knows this person has been vetted.

To drive a car you need a license. I do not think you should have to jump through hoops, unless you are a felon and a mental patient you should get a permit. To be a cop and carry a gun, you have to be vetted. If a cop killed someone for no reason, the first thing you would say is "How did he get this job?".

Call me weird, but I think a felon should be able to have a gun in his house, but not carry outside. If you stole a car 20 years ago and never got into trouble since, you do not have a right to protect your home?

CCW permits should be shall issue and good through all 50 States.

You also wrote "It is a sum of all your posts that you knock police. Most police, especially members of this forum want citizens to be armed. I personally feel that every qualified citizen should have a concealed carry permit like a drivers' license that should be good in all 50 States."


You got two problems here.

Obviously you do not believe in Rights. You believe in permission. Every one else has already made the obvious connection about cars not being in the US Constitution.

The next problem is your statement about "most cops". If you are personally offended when I question cops... Then you must feel ALL cops are good guys. Well...

Operation Fast and Furious was put on by Cops... DOJ, DEA, BATF... They're cops. And I'd venture to say MOST of them would disagree with you... Especially DEA and BATF who spend a great deal of time harassing FFL holders under this current administration...

You have an issue with RIGHTS. Those are not granted by the all powerful and benevolent government. Rights as specified in the Declaration and Constitution as being granted by GOD. INALIENABLE!

I for one believe that my rights as guaranteed by the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution are not to be tampered with because some guy thinks I should have a "safety class" or be "permitted" to carry a gun? This is one of the issues!!!!

And face it police and the all knowing feds have done a piss poor job of keeping guns out of felons hands. IN FACT THE BATF, DEA, FBI, AND BORDER PATROL HAVE BEEN PUTTING GUNS IN THE HANDS OF FELONS!!!! All your laws and regulations have been unable to stop or curb ANY OF THIS!
 
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