JcMack
Member
Here's what's left of my carry revolvers. I really like the "O" ring retention on the left hand holster. I'm carrying a G26 more lately because of wandering pit bulls around here.
The J Frame for defense
- Thread starter Frank V
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David LaPell
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I have come to really enjoy carrying those little j-frames about here and there. I have had three now, two Model 36's, one nickel one blued and now my little 649. With the right loads the gun is ideal. The J-frame slips right into a pocket any day of the year hot or cold.
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BigDaddy7972
Member
Yes, my bad, I was referring to Evan Marshall. I too carried a couple of revolvers back in the day. I know a couple of guys who did that. The key phrase however is "back in the day". Things change and usually not for the better. This isn't the 1970's. As far as to how many thugs I have stopped in the last year that were carrying more than one high capcity handgun, the answer is twice. It's not uncommon.
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Just out of curiosity!!! How do these thugs carry??? Do they wear shoot me first vests, hoodies, or just have it in a car???
Guy22
BigDaddy7972
Member
One guy had it in a car, the other guy was security for a dope house. The guy in the car had a stolen G19 and his buddy had and old beat up 3914. The security for the dope house had a Beretta 96 hidden in a bush he was standing next to as well as a 380. We watched him go to that bush several times to check to make sure his guns were still there,lol.
bushmaster1313
Member
Not so dumb
Lots of guns have walked in the past few years
It is for retention. It is a fairly rigid piece of rawhide. it fits well enough over the hammer to keep the gun in the holster, but it is very easy to slip the thong off with my thumb.
All the holsters are by Lobo. The two 2" j-frame holsters are identical except for the finish and the lining on my daughter's holster. Ray was good enough to make these holsters based on some photographs I sent him of an old K-frame holster.
Yes, I agree 100%. The j-frame was the best choice for civilian concealed carry 40 years ago, and none of the changes since then have negated that.
Frank237
Absent Comrade
Way back in the mid 70's I'd say that 90% of all east coast coppers carried either a J frame 2" or a PPK/S Walther. At least so it seemed.
I had a 2" M-60 with a set of Fuzzy Farrant custom grips in some sort of Safariland OWB holster. And I felt WELL gunned.
Then we had a situation one time maybe an hour after shift change, and a few of us from the previous shift were nearby (at a Bar!) and responded. There had already been some shots fired, and one of our guys had been injured in a scuffle with the perp and had lost his 4" M-19.
Standing there trying to cover one flank, with my 2" M-60; MAN but did I ever feel underpowered and ineffective! I luckily snagged a shotgun from one of the State Troopers who responded. Felt a LOT better then.
I still carry a M-60 occasionally but my Commander sized Ed Brown 1911 in .45 acp gets carried far more. With oneof my ex duty guns SIG 229's in .357 SIG as my car gun when I travel in my man bag.
FN in MT
I had a 2" M-60 with a set of Fuzzy Farrant custom grips in some sort of Safariland OWB holster. And I felt WELL gunned.
Then we had a situation one time maybe an hour after shift change, and a few of us from the previous shift were nearby (at a Bar!) and responded. There had already been some shots fired, and one of our guys had been injured in a scuffle with the perp and had lost his 4" M-19.
Standing there trying to cover one flank, with my 2" M-60; MAN but did I ever feel underpowered and ineffective! I luckily snagged a shotgun from one of the State Troopers who responded. Felt a LOT better then.
I still carry a M-60 occasionally but my Commander sized Ed Brown 1911 in .45 acp gets carried far more. With oneof my ex duty guns SIG 229's in .357 SIG as my car gun when I travel in my man bag.
FN in MT
GatorFarmer
Member
Confidence with a gun is bred via success at drills and practice. Difficulty with sights may make that difficult.
Some people do use the sights even at the distance of a living room. I had a heavy bbl Model 64 - and not a J frame - the first time I had to aim a weapon at someone. I distinctly remembered lining up the front post center of mass. The rear sights served as a point of reference.
Wow, there is a lot of response to this thread.
I was pointing out an article that had a paragraph by a respected Lawman about the J frame.
Since I started it, I think I'll give my thoughts too.
I started in LE back in the early 70s, most of us carried revolvers then. I carried a S&W mod 19 with shudder handloads, remember this was '73!
I also carried other guns on duty as allowed.
I was blessed in that time to never have to shoot another Human & I've thanked God for that often. A few times it was very close, but I never had to shoot anyone. Some of my friends weren't so blessed.
During most of that time a S&W J frame was my constant companion. It was a mod 60 & spent so much time in my pocket that it looked like a nickle gun. I shot it enough to really trust it.
I also shot NRA Pistol Bullseye for just over 20 years. Some of that time I shot the J frame just to do it. They are surprisingly accurate, just more difficult to wring that accuracy out of than some other guns. They will regularly keep 3 out of 5 shots on a std B50 target at 100 yards if you are shooting well that day.
Do I carry one as primary? Not often, but in the summer it may be the largest gun I can carry & REALLY conceal it. I am confident with it & feel it'll bring me home at night if neccessary.
Chenk out the Armed Citizen in the American Rifleman. I think you will find a large part of the time the simple dispay of a firearm by a citizen will settle the confrontation. I've seen this a number of times on duty too. Most criminals, once they realise they are in danger, want to be somewhere else. Stealth is another reason I really like the J frames. No one will know you have it till you pull it, this in itself is a huge advantage.
I feel, though, that awareness of your surroundings, planning an escape route, identifying cover & concealment, will go a loooooong ways towards bringing you & your family home at night.
I'm no longer required to go into places of known danger & won't unless there is overwelming reason to! Given the opportunity if I have to I'll run, there are a number of ways to avoid danger. I will seek those.
Still the J frame is very comforting & it's not a false comfort. I really like the J frame. If you want a real treat, hang a targer at 25 + yards & shoot at it. I think you will be surprised at how well they shoot. I favor a good wadcutter target load for practice & they will often hit right to the sights. For serious, I load with Buffalo Bore 158gr lead SWC HP non +P, BB claims 850fps & I've chronographed them at an actual 867fps frome a 2" gun. This is the duplicate of the OLD FBI load.
Thanks, good shooting.
Frank
I was pointing out an article that had a paragraph by a respected Lawman about the J frame.
Since I started it, I think I'll give my thoughts too.
I started in LE back in the early 70s, most of us carried revolvers then. I carried a S&W mod 19 with shudder handloads, remember this was '73!
I also carried other guns on duty as allowed.
I was blessed in that time to never have to shoot another Human & I've thanked God for that often. A few times it was very close, but I never had to shoot anyone. Some of my friends weren't so blessed.
During most of that time a S&W J frame was my constant companion. It was a mod 60 & spent so much time in my pocket that it looked like a nickle gun. I shot it enough to really trust it.
I also shot NRA Pistol Bullseye for just over 20 years. Some of that time I shot the J frame just to do it. They are surprisingly accurate, just more difficult to wring that accuracy out of than some other guns. They will regularly keep 3 out of 5 shots on a std B50 target at 100 yards if you are shooting well that day.
Do I carry one as primary? Not often, but in the summer it may be the largest gun I can carry & REALLY conceal it. I am confident with it & feel it'll bring me home at night if neccessary.
Chenk out the Armed Citizen in the American Rifleman. I think you will find a large part of the time the simple dispay of a firearm by a citizen will settle the confrontation. I've seen this a number of times on duty too. Most criminals, once they realise they are in danger, want to be somewhere else. Stealth is another reason I really like the J frames. No one will know you have it till you pull it, this in itself is a huge advantage.
I feel, though, that awareness of your surroundings, planning an escape route, identifying cover & concealment, will go a loooooong ways towards bringing you & your family home at night.
I'm no longer required to go into places of known danger & won't unless there is overwelming reason to! Given the opportunity if I have to I'll run, there are a number of ways to avoid danger. I will seek those.
Still the J frame is very comforting & it's not a false comfort. I really like the J frame. If you want a real treat, hang a targer at 25 + yards & shoot at it. I think you will be surprised at how well they shoot. I favor a good wadcutter target load for practice & they will often hit right to the sights. For serious, I load with Buffalo Bore 158gr lead SWC HP non +P, BB claims 850fps & I've chronographed them at an actual 867fps frome a 2" gun. This is the duplicate of the OLD FBI load.
Thanks, good shooting.
Frank
geoff40
Member
Hit the attacker with the first couple of shots and one wouldn't be there trying to reload. Shot placement is king. I think a Chief is a great SD gun for the average person, with a caveat of learning to shoot it well as an absolute must. I practice well enough with mine that I feel well protected, and have confidence that I will be the winner should I ever have to go down that road. Pretty unlikely I am going to get in to a prolonged shoot out with multiple thugs, a handgun being the wrong tool for such a task in the first place.
MaximumLawman
Member
The 1970's had some of the most badass cop killers around compared to any time in the past 30 or 40 years. I don't recall any of the local cops losing a gunfight because they had .357 revolvers instead of .40 hi-cap semi-autos. And every big city had people like this back then. More so than today, based on what I've seen. They were very well-armed too. I'm thinking of guys like Boyd, Bethune and Hayward Brown since you brought up Detroit. As far as your example, a dope man hiding a hi-cap pistol in the bushes is NOT carrying it on him. And, yes, it is a rare occurrence for someone to take two hi-cap handguns off a bad guy's person. The examples you gave didn't include them carrying the guns on them, and you gave two examples of a hi-cap close by in one year. That's uncommon. I'll let other big city cops weigh in on that one. I still return to my J-Frame as a primary off-duty gun again and again. That's after carrying things like a Colt Officer's Model Lightweight and a Glock 27. I would have no problem recommending the J-Frame as a primary self defense gun for anyone, especially for the armed suburbanite who doesn't plan on going into areas where there is statistically likely to be more trouble than at the local Moose Club.
The preferred weapon for the on-duty types to take on bad guys is a shotgun or rifle. Off-duty too. The reasoning for carrying a hi-cap pistol off duty instead of a J-frame is usually "what if". If someone is so worried about "what if" that they need a high-cap .40 or .45 off-duty, and are willing to dress around it and put up with the inconvenience of carrying something too big to fit in a pocket, I always wonder why they don't wear a vest off-duty too. After all, the technology is there, why not use it if you need to carry a 16-shot semi-auto because a J-frame isn't enough?
I'd like to know this statistic: How many off-duty police or non-police citizen shootings, where the person armed with a J-Frame wasn't a scum bag or involved in a crime, wound up with the J-Frame-Armed person losing a gunfight because 5 shots wasn't enough. Same statistic for hi-cap semi autos with results stated in both raw numbers and percentages.
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If you will notice my post immediately previous to yours, you will see that I specified civilian concealed carry. Yes, a police officer who is sworn to go toward a bad situation whether on or off duty rather than getting away from it should carry heavier artillery than a civilian. Even as a civilian, in a situation like you described, I would probably have at least a heavier handgun, and possibly a long gun, available in my car.
No matter what gun is carried, drill and practice is necessary. I practice regularly with my j-frames, both using the sights and instinct/hip/point shooting at very close ranges.
That is because there are a whole lot of us who carry j-frames as our primary concealed weapon and we grow weary of being told that we are foolish. Most of us realize that the j-frame is a minimalist approach. We are aware of all the limitations, but we have concluded (for most of us, after a lot of thought, experimentation, and practice) that a j-frame is very likely to provide us with the protection we need under our particular circumstances.
I am about to go to work in a pawn shop. Will I depend on a j-frame as my primary carry? No, probably not. I will probably carry at least the four inch Model 12, or more probably the Kimber Pro Carry I mentioned in my first post. Probably the Kimber, because I figure my likelihood of needing serious caliber and a quick reload ability is several notches higher in that particular setting.
TAC
Member
The S&W J-frame is the gun of choice, for back-up, with the Michigan State Police. Also my EDC.
sipowicz
Member
Here's what's left of my carry revolvers. I really like the "O" ring retention on the left hand holster. I'm carrying a G26 more lately because of wandering pit bulls around here.
that's all I have too...
C Broad Arrow
Member
I have owned a large number of different styles and sizes of guns and tried to see how they would all work as a CCW gun. While I love my G19 my M60 beats it hands down for ease of concealment and carry.
I load with standard 158 LSWCs and it shoots well enough in any scenario that I can imagine. Are there better solutions to consider in other circumstances - absolutely. But overall I would give the J-Frame high marks in the all around good CCW gun category.
I load with standard 158 LSWCs and it shoots well enough in any scenario that I can imagine. Are there better solutions to consider in other circumstances - absolutely. But overall I would give the J-Frame high marks in the all around good CCW gun category.
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I carry whatever he recommends.
papajohn428
Member
I was a diehard revolver shooter for 25+ years before I felt that I could shoot a 2" J-frame well enough to rely on it for personal defense. I cut my teeth on K-frames and bigger guns, and those snubbies I tried proved to me that I was a HORRID shot with anything less than 3 inches of barrel. To this day,I still consider a J-frame an "Expert's Gun", especially if you don't practice with it often. Such is a necessary evil!
A few years ago I decided I would try out another J-frame, a S&W 642, which happened to come with a Crimson Trace lasergrip. Once I had a handle I could actually hold properly, everything got better. Tiny little grips don't work for me, and the Tyler T-grips made it better, but the CT-305 fits me like a glove, and my instinctive shooting is FAR better with it. I've since added two other J-frames with similar stocks, and shoot them far better than I expected. But man, ya gotta practice with them Lil Guns!
A few years ago I decided I would try out another J-frame, a S&W 642, which happened to come with a Crimson Trace lasergrip. Once I had a handle I could actually hold properly, everything got better. Tiny little grips don't work for me, and the Tyler T-grips made it better, but the CT-305 fits me like a glove, and my instinctive shooting is FAR better with it. I've since added two other J-frames with similar stocks, and shoot them far better than I expected. But man, ya gotta practice with them Lil Guns!
elm_creek_smith
US Veteran
I have a factory nickeled S&W Model 37 and a Taurus 85SSUL that I usually carry (one at a time) as backup to my duty revolver, a 4 inch S&W 686-6, or my primary off-duty CC, a 3 inch S&W Model 13-3. Sometimes off-duty I carry both the little guns, and, rarely, just one instead of the Model 13-3.
I don't feel unarmed with one gun, I just got into the habit of carrying two. I routinely shoot the little guns out to 25 yards and occasionally out to 100 yards so I remember how much front sight to hold over.
ECS
PS. I'll be 60 next week.
I don't feel unarmed with one gun, I just got into the habit of carrying two. I routinely shoot the little guns out to 25 yards and occasionally out to 100 yards so I remember how much front sight to hold over.
ECS
PS. I'll be 60 next week.
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