The Mall Defender Revisited

[federali]

The El Paso Shooting will undoubtedly renew calls to use armed citizens as a first line of defense. It should be noted that according to newscasts, the mall where this tragic shooting took place was a gun free zone, insuring a victim-rich environment.

There are significant issues which need to be ironed out regarding an armed citizenry responding to a shooting. First, is the situation of mistaken identity. What happens when two or more armed citizens who don't know each other respond to a shooting? Is the second armed person you see a responder or is he or she an accomplice? Might he mistake you for a gunman?

If you're shopping with family, how do you avoid drawing fire towards your family? How do you avoid being shot by armed security if present? With multiple people calling 9-1-1, expect nothing short of the cavalry to arrive at any moment armed to the teeth and in the throes of an adrenaline rush. This is not a good time to be seen with a gun in your hand. If you're fortunate enough to neutralize a gunman, do not attempt to disarm him. Maintain cover and wait for the police.

The police will not make any assumptions. They need to secure the scene, silence and control all guns and get treatment for the wounded. Sorting out the good guys from the bad guys will follow. You will get your opportunity to talk but expect to be disarmed, by force if necessary, then cuffed. Remember, it is unlawful to resist a wrongful arrest and getting in the face of the police will not end well for you. Gunmen have tried to escape the police net by pretending to be victims.

I happen to be in favor of an armed citizenry. But, no-one is providing mass-shooting training to citizens. It's up to you to understand what you may be getting yourself into and to also understand how quickly things can go wrong. I will act, if in my judgment, I can do so without being mistaken for a gunman and if no uniformed police are present. I will not join an ongoing gun battle where I'll likely draw fire from another responder.

Food for thought.

 

[NYlakesider]

The El Paso Shooting will undoubtedly renew calls to use armed citizens as a first line of defense. It should be noted that according to newscasts, the mall where this tragic shooting took place was a gun free zone, insuring a victim-rich environment.

There are significant issues which need to be ironed out regarding an armed citizenry responding to a shooting. First, is the situation of mistaken identity. What happens when two or more armed citizens who don't know each other respond to a shooting? Is the second armed person you see a responder or is he or she an accomplice? Might he mistake you for a gunman?

If you're shopping with family, how do you avoid drawing fire towards your family? How do you avoid being shot by armed security if present? With multiple people calling 9-1-1, expect nothing short of the cavalry to arrive at any moment armed to the teeth and in the throes of an adrenaline rush. This is not a good time to be seen with a gun in your hand. If you're fortunate enough to neutralize a gunman, do not attempt to disarm him. Maintain cover and wait for the police.

The police will not make any assumptions. They need to secure the scene, silence and control all guns and get treatment for the wounded. Sorting out the good guys from the bad guys will follow. You will get your opportunity to talk but expect to be disarmed, by force if necessary, then cuffed. Remember, it is unlawful to resist a wrongful arrest and getting in the face of the police will not end well for you. Gunmen have tried to escape the police net by pretending to be victims.

I happen to be in favor of an armed citizenry. But, no-one is providing mass-shooting training to citizens. It's up to you to understand what you may be getting yourself into and to also understand how quickly things can go wrong. I will act, if in my judgment, I can do so without being mistaken for a gunman and if no uniformed police are present. I will not join an ongoing gun battle where I'll likely draw fire from another responder.

Food for thought.

Your post should be required reading for all legally armed citizens! I have considered what you say for many years, what you say I agree with and if things go bad fast your options are limited, very limited.

 

[hoc9sw]

On another board there is a huge wail of "where were the TX CHL folks".
Even if I had been there, my commission to serve the public ended years ago. I am now a private citizen, retired. There is no expectation that I will run to confront a threat. And that's good, because I will not. Protect my friends and family? Yes, I will. But that may be as simple as getting them to a safe place.

There are younger, more able men and women out there who have taken that commission and carry those responsibilities.

 

[murphydog]

Each one of these events is different and would be very difficult for a well-funded and organized law enforcement agency to train and effectively respond, let alone any individual or small group of citizens.

To me, the principles seem to be - avoid gun-free zones/risk the consequences of being armed; always play the "what-if" game (situational awareness); protect your family; and think beforehand about under what circumstances you would engage. The last one always generates the most discussion but to me there is no 100% right or wrong answer for every person or scenario.

Prayers to the Dayton and El Paso victims and their families.

 

[oink]

The often used quote and justification "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." is irrelevant if good guys don't act. I agree with the "family first" sentiment but after that...

 

[NYlakesider]

Each one of these events is different and would be very difficult for a well-funded and organized law enforcement agency to train and effectively respond, let alone any individual or small group of citizens.

To me, the principles seem to be - avoid gun-free zones/risk the consequences of being armed; always play the "what-if" game (situational awareness); protect your family; and think beforehand about under what circumstances you would engage. The last one always generates the most discussion but to me there is no 100% right or wrong answer for every person or scenario.

Prayers to the Dayton and El Paso victims and their families.

As a person that has had a CCWP since 1972, I long ago made up my mind on what I would do or not do. Of course that is all based on the circumstances going on at that exact moment in time. Plans can and sometimes must change at warp speed. At that time hopefully "God is your copilot!"

 

[Rastoff]

I liked the OP federali.

However:

...no-one is providing mass-shooting training to citizens.

...are you sure about that?

 

[gman51]

An armed citizen better have a pillar to hide behind if he decides to shoot. I just imagine the citizen will draw multiple shots his way so he better not be out in the open for sure.
The citizen better be a good shooter at a moving target perhaps quite a distance away. Paper punching is far from realistic practice.
I am surprised the WalMart was gun free being in Texas but being so close to the border might have been why. But that also figures into why the shooter decided to have his shooting there. Such a coward but smart enough to realize how he could be safer to live through it there.
Gun free laws or signs don't work, never will and actually have the opposite of their intention.
I totally agree with avoiding gun free areas is the safest action to take. I was to meet someone at a public area but after checking into it I said no way am I going there. The whole area, like a little outside mall, was totally gun and weapon free zoned.

 

[Fishinfool]

I respect the opinions of my fellow posters. Each has to decide how they would handle such a situation.

Broken down to basics, no matter what my "status" (LEO, retired LEO, armed citizen) If I was in a situation where a person with a gun was mowing down innocent folks in front of me, with no question about who the innocent or guilty party was, I would do my best to stop him with deadly force. I have to live with myself, but that's just me.

Larry

 

[sigp220.45]

I'm an old retired guy now, but several times in my career I headed to the sound of gunfire while others were headed away. I'm pretty sure I still would. I know myself, and I just can't imagine hiding behind the kitty litter while some coward shot down innocent men, women, and children.

 

[ken158]

Your post should be required reading for all legally armed citizens! I have considered what you say for many years, what you say I agree with and if things go bad fast your options are limited, very limited.

If you feel you must act and can do so within all parameters noted above then be prepared when the cops get there because they will not be warm and fuzzy with your feelings. Comply with every command without objection. Active shooter training is to identify and neutralize a suspect. Don't be a suspect. Better yet, do be a great witness.

 

[Kanewpadle]

It's really quite simple. If I'm with family, we're outta here. If not, I will do what I can keeping in mind that I need to return to my family unhurt.

Many folks around here hate guns. They won't protect themselves and expect to be protected. As cold as it sounds, they're on their own. I'm not taking a bullet for them. And I'll sleep just fine.

 

[sigp220.45]

I will do what I can keeping in mind that I need to return to my family unhurt.

Then you should resign yourself to doing nothing.

 

[Kanewpadle]

As far as the average citizen being trained for mass shootings, I'm not sure that's such a great idea.

SWAT teams train long and hard. And there are several team members which respond. The average citizen is usually alone and often outgunned. Such training better be world class and throw in some good luck.

I'm not saying that we should do nothing. But you had better think hard and be prepared.

 

[LVSteve]

The El Paso Shooting will undoubtedly renew calls to use armed citizens as a first line of defense. It should be noted that according to newscasts, the mall where this tragic shooting took place was a gun free zone, insuring a victim-rich environment.

I'm confused. According to the Google Earth images, the Walmart and the mall are entirely different buildings. Are both posted no firearms, or have the media latched on to the one location that is posted.

 

[sigp220.45]

I'm confused. According to the Google Earth images, the Walmart and the mall are entirely different buildings. Are both posted no firearms, or have the media latched on tothe one location that is posted.

Several people have stated the Wal Mart, to which the shooting was confined, is not a gun free zone. I bet they even sell guns and ammo there.

I love Wal Mart, and even here in lefty Colorado, they are not posted. I have seen open carry in my Wal Mart many times.

If the figure of 3000 people in the Wal Mart is correct (certainly possible for a large Super Store) then I'd guess there were at least 30 ccw folks in there.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Then you should resign yourself to doing nothing.

Maybe. Maybe not. As you well know, every event is different. It all depends is the best answer I can give.

I drove by a car accident several months ago. A man was ejected from his car. He desperately needed medical attention. I pulled over to help. But it was too late. Some low life's standing nearby laughed as they recorded the event on their phones. They bragged about posting the video on some website.

These kind of people don't deserve my help.

 

[LPD256]

Some idiot shoots his sister and others. I was a happy only child until my sister was born. Can't say I've ever thought about hunting her down and shooting her along with everyone else in her vicinity. Another dipwad takes an AK to Walmart several hundred miles from his house because he has an agenda. That hasn't crossed my mind either. These incidents seem to be perfectly good reasons to rewrite gun laws to some people. Craziness abounds. According to CBS this morning mass shootings makeup 1% of gun deaths while suicides are 60%. Would it be too much to ask to have people in a position to do something start focusing on mental health, drug abuse, gang violence, etc and not call for "gun control". I feel like I can control my own guns. And yes, I would protect my family at a mall or wherever.

 

[blues7]

My instincts would be to help if I thought I could. Everything would be determined by the reality presented on the ground.

 

[Dvan34]

These mass shootings seem to be occurring more frequently and the weapon of choice appears to be semi-auto rifles. we don't seem to have all of the information regarding the Ohio shooting. It appears that a citizen disarmed the shooter's rifle and the shooter began using a handgun.
A rifle was used in Gilroy, CA . Rifles, as we are aware, have more range and power than handguns and can be fired accurately at longer distances. This makes it chancey to try to engage a shooter with a handgun at a distance. 25 yards is a relative distance for a handgun. And self-defense usually around 21 feet. Now in a heavily crowded area? Even locating the attacker firing from a secure cover?