The myth of draw speed

Wild Bill Hickok ? Davis Tutt shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wild Bill started with the gun in hand. The holster was to store the gun until it was needed. If you knew it would be needed, it was in your hand.(Wild Bill cheated-he practiced shooting his Colt)

Along with the reports of men getting killed in gun fights, there are also reports of guns being emptied at close range, reloaded, and emptied again, with no one killed except the piano player.

I think some of the modern shooters are probably better gun fighters than our illustrious cowboys were. More practice, better equipment, less booze.
 
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OK. Here is the youtube link.

Guy drawing from concealment; 6 rounds on target (7 yrds) in 1.98 seconds.

Bill Drill

Bear in mind - in the OP's scenario, you are acting. The bad guy would be reacting. Those of you who don't shoot a LOT, but do shoot enough to know, will realize how easy it is to pull that first shot way off target, especially with a DA revolver or long DA first shot from a DA/SA semi.

I have not been in combat and realize that no one but those who have really know what they'd do. But thinking things through ahead of time AND a lot of practice on the fundamentals gives you a better chance if things hit the fan.
 
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mikerault said:
We all know the scene, two men facing off amano amano and the winner is the fastest one to the draw. Now, how often in real life does this happen?
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I don't know how often it happens but it does happen.

When John Wesley Hardin killed sheriff's deputy Charlie Webb in Comanche Texas the two met and exchanged words and Hardin dared Webb to arrest him.

According to witness Webb stepped back, put his cigar in his teeth, said "No, God Damn you I'm not afraid of you." and drew his gun.

None of the testimony said that either was especially faster than the other but Hardin shot first, hitting Webb in the face and killing him.
 
Bell Charter Oak Holsters said:
Look at the incident with the school board shooting. The perps weapon was drawn and he was firing but the school security officer dusted him anyway.
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If you are talking about the incident I think you are the security guard wasn't in the room when the shooter started firing , he came into the room behind and to the side of the shooter and then engaged him.

He didn't draw against the guy
 
The draw is as important as moving. Moving is as important as the draw...

As pointed out, the average banger or street thug isn't a crack shot... moving makes it even harder.

Gun, knife... OODA loop wins. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it already.

In all the situations pointed out in the thread, the bad guy has the gun and expects compliance. How is it they end up shot?

They don't expect the other person to draw a gun and shoot them.
 
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mikerault said:
We all know the scene, two men facing off amano amano and the winner is the fastest one to the draw. Now, how often in real life does this happen? In almost every case I have read about the BG has their gun out first or you have several seconds of warning of a BG in your house, store, whatever. I don't ever recall a story of a person defending them themselves from a bad guy where draw speed was really a major factor in the outcome.

Now, if non-LEOs have some actual verifiable cases where draw speed was a critical part of their defense in a real BG verse GG situation I would love to read them!
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From what I've read, the winner is the guy who gets to cover first, rarely the fastest draw or the best shot.
In a mugging situation, it's generally quicker to take his than to use yours. Under 5 feet between me and the gun, the gun is mine. That's not cockiness, that's confidence in my training.
 
Kentucky Dave said:
Observation: No one mentions observing the bad guy's posture, demeanor, gun and distance.
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I hear you, but observation goes right out the window when confronted with a gun for most people. I mean, I agree that all the things you mention could change how you respond. Alas, having the barrel of a gun pointed at you, usually limits your perception.

Springfeildkid585 said:
Under 5 feet between me and the gun, the gun is mine.
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I'm not saying you can't, but I'd like to test this.

I teach a gun take away technique that is very effective. However, it doesn't work unless you get closer than 5 feet. We practice it by having the "bad guy" say "bang" as soon as the defender moves. I'm slow, but I haven't been shot yet and I've always gotten the gun. From 5 feet I think the defender would always get shot.

This is just a thought and I'm not "calling you out" or anything like that. I'd just like to work with you and learn. I'm always open to learning more.
 
Alas, having the barrel of a gun pointed at you, usually limits your perception.
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Having had tunnel vision (dual tunnels, actually) from staring down the barrels of an illegal, sawed off side-by-side 12 gauge being waved around my temple during a traffic stop by a - shall we charitably say - troubled officer whose troubles got him sued and off the force eventually... I agree 100%.

:D
 
Strato said:
If he starts pulling his weapon are you gonna miss?
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When I was instucting we used the statistic that it takes the average person 2 1/2 seconds to recognize that the situation is changing and that the other person is drawing a gun. 2 1/2 seconds is an eternity in a world counting actions in hundredths of a second.
 
sac-gunslinger said:
When I was instucting we used the statistic that it takes the average person 2 1/2 seconds to recognize that the situation is changing and that the other person is drawing a gun. 2 1/2 seconds is an eternity in a world counting actions in hundredths of a second.
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Yep.

Look at the video link in post # 62.

Drawing from concealment and popping 6 rounds on target in 1.98 seconds...
 
Aloha,

You can either Believe or Not believe what's coming next.

Hawaii has a LOT of people with all kinds of martial arts training.

In a nutshell, I have been told on more that one occasion,

a good martial artist with street experience and knows firearms is capable

of Disarming a person pointing a loaded gun at him inside of 25 feet.

I personally know several guys who could do this. I never let them practice on me as I don't like getting hurt.

They're now a lot Older and slower and they All own guns and know how to use them.

Also, think Tueller Knife Drill. I think the distance has been increased to 25'
 
YogiBear said:
Aloha,

You can either Believe or Not believe what's coming next.

Hawaii has a LOT of people with all kinds of martial arts training.

In a nutshell, I have been told on more that one occasion,

a good martial artist with street experience and knows firearms is capable

of Disarming a person pointing a loaded gun at him inside of 25 feet.

I personally know several guys who could do this. I never let them practice on me as I don't like getting hurt.

They're now a lot Older and slower and they All own guns and know how to use them.

Also, think Tueller Knife Drill. I think the distance has been increased to 25'
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Count me with the "NOT believing it" group!
 
YogiBear said:
In a nutshell, I have been told on more that one occasion,

a good martial artist with street experience and knows firearms is capable

of Disarming a person pointing a loaded gun at him inside of 25 feet.
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I have no doubt that you've been told this. However, if a shooter has his gun out and pointed at a person, they will easily get at least one shot off before 25' can be covered. Yes, I believe the gun can be taken away, but not without being shot in the process.

You don't have to hurt someone to demonstrate this.
 
D7dun said:
You can have the best holster known to man.
When it is time for it.
The best place for your gun in in your hand.

An Old Training Officer at the Detroit Police Academy, 1974
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Agreed. Which contradicts all the folks who think it's a point of dogma that the handgun shouldn't leave the holster unless on its way to pulling the trigger on someone. Can't understand why that mantra remains so pervasive. There are plenty of good reasons to draw one's handgun apart from its being step one in a draw-and-fire motion.
 
mikerault said:
In Iai, the Japanese art of drawing the sword, the goal is to get so good at drawing the sword that the enemy immediately capitulates. But the favorite story is about a true master involved a boat ride where a blowhard recognized a master and called him out, despite repeated refusals the blowhard pressed the master into a dual. The Master said "Ok, but let us do it on that island there so we do not endanger innocent people on the boat." The boatman put in to the island, the blowhard leaped off first and the Master then pushed the boat off from shore and waved goodbye to the blow hard.

Being able to use your weapon is only one half of what you need to know, knowing when to use it is the other half.
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That scene was reproduced in Enter The Dragon, where Bruce Lee was the Master who left the blowhard in a dinghy.
 
The Real Hawkeye said:
Agreed. Which contradicts all the folks who think it's a point of dogma that the handgun shouldn't leave the holster unless on its way to pulling the trigger on someone. Can't understand why that mantra remains so pervasive. There are plenty of good reasons to draw one's handgun apart from its being step one in a draw-and-fire motion.
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I agree with this, but the logic is still sound. The idea of not drawing unless ready to shoot is as much a mindset as it is a practice.

If you have time, obviously it's better to have your gun in your hand. What I want people to think about is that when you present your gun, you must be ready to use it. Too many operate from the misconception that just seeing a gun will end the confrontation. It may. In fact a huge percentage of crimes are stopped just by seeing a gun. The problem comes when just seeing it doesn't stop the threat. Hesitation can get you killed.
 
Rastoff said:
I agree with this, but the logic is still sound. The idea of not drawing unless ready to shoot is as much a mindset as it is a practice.

If you have time, obviously it's better to have your gun in your hand. What I want people to think about is that when you present your gun, you must be ready to use it. Too many operate from the misconception that just seeing a gun will end the confrontation. It may. In fact a huge percentage of crimes are stopped just by seeing a gun. The problem comes when just seeing it doesn't stop the threat. Hesitation can get you killed.
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I don't disagree with anything you said there, as it doesn't contradict what I said.
 
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