The myth of draw speed

Quoted from oldman45:As to history, people need to read the link I posted above.
I went back and read some of the stories listed in your link. They have been edited and butchered from whatever source they copied them from to the point they aren't worth reading, at least not if you want to know what really might have happened. This is a problem with the internet, people read things that have been hacked from some other source and never really know the whole story.

As for the rest of your opinions, they say a lot about your qualifications for forming them. It's your soapbox, say whatever you want, but I'm not listening anymore.
 
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oldman45; thousands of armed robberies each year but the clerks are not killed......I will not try to outdraw a person pointing a gun at me. It becomes time for soft spoken talk. The odds are against me if I go for a gun. The odds say the armed person will not shoot me if I do not anger him. QUOTE said:
The above points are valid but what if the odds are not with you ?

What if you have to do something ? What if fast positive action is required ? Do you have the ability to take that action.

John Farnams DTI Quips have the story of the Gurkha on the train that was robbed - too long to repeat but worth a read - he did nothing until action was forced on him, then he reacted with speed and skill to a very positive conclusion.

No it is not your first choice of action but it might be the only choice you are left with.
 
This is a Leo example of speed. In 1978 I drove up on a vehicle whose driver had just robbed, kidnapped and sexually assaulted a convienience store clerk. He did all this on impulse and then realized that because he was a frequent customer, she would be able to identify him. He stated in his confession that he was about to shoot her in the head when he saw my headlights coming down the road. He made her get into his car and then took off. I began pursuing. When he realized he could not outrun me, he slammed on the brakes, jumped out of his door with his revolver already cocked with the intention of killing me and taking my car. I had to jam on the brakes to keep from hitting his vehicle. The next thing I know is that he is standin in front of my vehicle holding a revolver in an isocelese stance pointing it right at me. He said my bright lights kind of made him hesitate for a second cause it was hard to see me. His plan was to shoot me as I exited my vehicle. I had reached down to turn the siren off and when I looked up, there he was. Years of practice and trainging kicked in and without really thinking about it, my 44 boomed through my windshield and the bad guy dropped like he was poleaxed. He had fainted. The only thing that touched him was the glass out of the windshield.

He survived and went to prison. I was named Deputy of the year. I was carrying a Smith 29 in a Jordan Border Patrol holster worn the way Bill Jordan intended with the safety strap snapped out of the way. A leathersmith had helped me put a tension screw between the barrel and the welt of the hoster so tightening or loosening a Chicago Screw would adjust the tension on the revolver making it tight enough to stay in the holster but available for instant draw. The holster had quite a bit of forward rake. With it form fitted to the revolver and the correct amount of tention, it was almost impossible to snatch from behind. Snatching it from the front wasn't going to work cause you would get 5 rounds of 44 Special from the Bulldog I carried in my off hand pants pocket.

If a guy has the drop on you, you better be able to draw and fire faster than he can react and pull the trigger. Not impossible since most peoples reaction time is 3/4 second or longer. As far as off duty or concealed carry, if you look up and see some demented sociopath coming toward you with a knife or a club, you'd better be able to bring your sidearm into action before he reaches you. Otherwise the anti-gunners will be saying how you should not have been carrying a gun after he knocks you unconscious and then kills you with your own weapon. Remember Jeff Cooper. Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas means Accuracy, Power, and SPEED.

During this colder weather, I can carry a revolver in my hand in my jacket pocket and no one will be able to tell. Already having the gun in my hand and just firing through the jacket pocket is extremely fast and you have made no movement to telegraph your intentions to your opponent. If you were walking to your car in a parking lot at night and an armed carjacker approached, the first hint that you were not going to submit would be the boom of a 357 or 38 and the funny feeling he'd get when a 125 grain slug enters his solar plexus and exits his spine.
 
Gabe Suarez and his training philosophy are controversial in many quarters, but it's worth pointing out that in some of his courses this scenario -- reacting to a drawn and pointed weapon by moving off the "X", while drawing and firing one's own weapon at the threat -- shows surprising success. This is done with paintball and simunitions guns, of course.

One should not discount being able to react successfully given any opportunity to do so.
 
reacting to a drawn and pointed weapon by moving off the "X", while drawing and firing one's own weapon at the threat -- shows surprising success.

One should not discount being able to react successfully given any opportunity to do so.




Well Boys,
Right there ya go...



*As a side note to all this here sheep dip,
I had a meth tweaker throw down on me in a short hallway once...
Well, let's jest say he quit the tweakin' business.

No, I ain't fast...Just willin'

Su Amigo,
Dave
 
Well... An interesting discussion and it does remind one of all the assumptions of gunfighting. We all have to study the subject and come to our own conclusions... and live or die by them.
 
Having seen quite a few inner-city shootings over the years, it has become clear to me that most assailants can't shoot worth a damn, even at close range. Moreover, they don't read Ayoob and they don't know or care who he is. Many of the assailants (and victims) I have encountered can be characterized as "uncivilized" and they give animals a bad name. Many of these shootings are so bizarre that if you heard them you'd think they must be fiction. Of course many of these "victims" are in fact the moral equivalent of their assailants. In light of this, I have seen incidents where victims have disarmed their assailants and shot them (or shot at them) with their own guns. I believe that this type of activity happens more often than we are lead to believe. The moral of the story is that savage, mind numbing violence really can be a good and effective response to a lethal threat, even when things are looking very bad. As nice, law-abiding human beings, we have been conditioned to use less than ideal force and it is often to our own detriment. Of course there are obvious dangers in attempting to out-draw somebody who had a gun pointed at you, but in this situation ANY action you take can still result in your getting shot. We all possess different degrees of gun handling skill and humanity and compassion, so what might for one clearly will not work for all.

Dave Sinko
 
IIRC this robber got the drop on seven men and made them lie down as he took their valuables. One of the seven men had a concealed weapon which he was able to draw. When the robber saw the holster the shooting started. Don't recall who fired first, think it was the robber. I think I read the good guy thought the robber was going to shoot them all. Both survived hits that were serious but not life threatening. Close range shooting.

Early report (scroll down): Man arrested in Jefferson City shooting : News : ConnectMidMissouri.com .

Convicted.
http://www.colecopa.com/news/110111 release.pdf

Man convicted in 2009 downtown robbery-shooting | News Tribune

Just an interesting scenario, robber had the drop on the victims, but there was so much going on the good guy had a moment to get his weapon out and ready.
 
I'm frequently the range officer at the club where I shoot. Several times, men and women with little or no experience have come out (usually with a gun-owning friend or relative) to try pistol shooting. If there's not much going on, I take this as an opportunity to try an experiment.

I set up an IPDA target at about 5 yards and have the new shooter start from low ready and fire when they hear the timer, trying to hit the chest area. The only practice is allowing the shooter to raise and dry-firing a couple of times. Almost every time, the shooter is able to get an acceptable hit within one (1) second of the buzzer.

It's hard for most to draw from normal concealment and fire in under 2 seconds. If .5 of that is reaction to the buzzer, you're going to be shooting a half second after the opponent has fired, all things being equal.

This is a simple demonstration. It leaves out many of the factors involved in a self-defense shooting, like mind-set, focus, distractions, type of gear involved, etc. For example, someone using a vest for concealment and an open top holster, may be able to draw and fire in well under 1.5 seconds. Change the outfit to what a many wear and draw time will double or triple.
 
Somewhere I read a study on all the NYPD shootings going back 100+ years.

Faded memory Recalls bits and pieces... most incidents involving police deaths were essentially ambushes, in the dark, in terrible lighting conditions. I imagine many were in pursuit of the BG

Survival rates logically increased with distance, movement, and finding cover.

I recall the average fight being 6 feet and 3 shots in total.

It changed my way of thinking from Glocks and high capacity to a snubbie in a pocket.

I think common sense, coupled with awareness, not allowing other within a certain "personal zone" helps to eliminate a lot of factors resulting in possible confrontations... if all else fails there is Plan B which is 158 grains exiting right front coat pocket.

It's not overconfidence, but I'm comfortable with the belief that I already have the drop on the BG. Better than drawing in a no win situation or begging for mercy.
 
I know one guy who walked in on a hold-up in progress, in uniform, and was taken by surprise when the hold-up man, who was standing in line, put a gun to his head and told him not to go for his gun. He went for his gun from the holster and shot the guy in the gut with a .357 Super Vel round and dropped him. Another guy, in plain clothes, walked out of a liquor store and was held-up on the sidewalk. Bad guy put a gun to his head and told him to "check it in". Good guy said: "OK, I'm just getting my wallet, don't shoot..." And drew his Glock from his waistband near his wallet and shot the hold-up man in the throat.

I know of another local guy who was robbed outside a bar. He turned over his wallet like they told him to and they shot him anyway. He pulled his gun(s) after being shot and killed one of the hold-up men and wounded the other.

Draw speed a myth? To each his own I guess. It's all just "bench racing" until it's you making the decisions for real.
 
Quite the heated debate! All the posts here assume the BG will have a gun. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most armed attacks involve a knife? In that case draw speed could save your life.
The reason I applied for my ccw was a vagrant approached me in broad daylight and pulled a folding knife threatening to cut me.
 
"The reason I applied for my ccw was a vagrant approached me in broad daylight and pulled a folding knife threatening to cut me. "


I have heard of people like that, bringing a knife to a gunfight.. Seems like they lose almost all the time..


Dave
 
The last disagreement I had with someone that wanted to "Borrow" my wallet pulled a knife on me. Situation was close enough that I could not get to the M37 fast enough without getting sliced. When she turned to the woman that was with me the last thing she expected was a Stanley 30' Fat Max tape measure slap to the side of the head. Too bad she fell through the glass in the window.

Class III
 
Remember a wounded enemy requires 2 to take care of him. A dead one takes none.

I've noticed that the last few dozen US enemies don't take care of their wounded
until After the Battle, if at all...some considered it very dishonorable to get wounded & not die...
some others just had no Esprit de Corps...which meant if you got shot, you were on your own...
same for gang members...unless a relative is on scene, you fall, you are on your own...

Conversely, a dead enemy can't shoot back...
whereas a wounded one can definitely ruin your day by continuing to shoot...
which to me means, incapacitate, then finalize every enemy you come across,
so that they cannot do the same to you. Treat 'em like zombies. Make Sure.
 
A gun in hand is quicker than the draw, if you are aware of your surroundings. If I had missed all the warning signs and allowed the bad guy to get the drop on me, depending on the distance between us, I would be closing the gap to deal with the weapon or look for something heavy to get behind until I could get to mine. Out drawing someone is "Hollyweird" BS and will get you hurt!
 
Observation: No one mentions observing the bad guy's posture, demeanor, gun and distance.

Guy standing 6' in front of me, visibly cocked weapon in hand held steadily in a "normal" position, calm enough to appear to know what he's doing? Yes sir, here is my money.

Guy 10' in front of me, uncocked DA revolver - especially a SatNiteSpec *** - held sideways gangsta style, twitching?

I'm going for my gun while dodging like hell.

Guy at any distance dumb enough to have a 1911 style uncocked? Call the meat wagon... Nobody said criminals are smart.

A guy can observe a lot by just watching... YB.
 
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Guy 10' in front of me, uncocked DA revolver - especially a SatNiteSpec *** - held sideways gangsta style, twitching?

I'm going for my gun while dodging like hell.


In that case, don't dodge, you might dodge right into his errant shot ;)

Kinda like the safest place to stand on the golf course is the middle of the fairway! LOL.

Why not be quick on the draw? It then gives you more time to place a shot even if milliseconds.

Look at the reverse.

what are the disadvantages of a quick draw? NONE.
 
what are the disadvantages of a quick draw? NONE.

+1

When I was shooting USPSA regularly and practicing regularly, we did the "Bill Drill". At 7 yds from the holster, hands at shoulder level, draw at the buzzer & place 6 rounds into the A zone (about the size/shape of a the lid of a small shoe box) as fast as possible without missing. Speed up til you miss; slow down til you're back on 100% hits.

On a good day, 2.1 seconds, hands at shoulder height, from the holster, I could run off 6 hits.

Granted, an untrained bad guy can shoot a lot of rounds in 2 seconds, too, but will he hit anything?

Here's a random video from youtube of a guy doing a really good Bill Drill from concealment: 6 rounds on target in 1.98 seconds.

Oops! How do you do direct video?
 
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