The myth of draw speed

In Iai, the Japanese art of drawing the sword, the goal is to get so good at drawing the sword that the enemy immediately capitulates. But the favorite story is about a true master involved a boat ride where a blowhard recognized a master and called him out, despite repeated refusals the blowhard pressed the master into a dual. The Master said "Ok, but let us do it on that island there so we do not endanger innocent people on the boat." The boatman put in to the island, the blowhard leaped off first and the Master then pushed the boat off from shore and waved goodbye to the blow hard.

Being able to use your weapon is only one half of what you need to know, knowing when to use it is the other half.
 
oldman45 said:
I would ask the resident historians around here just what gunslingers were killed in face to face fast draws.

There is none I know of. Most of the wild west people were shot in the back ambushed or else hit while in a prolnged gunfight where there was adequate concealment.

The days of Gunsmoke duels is something for television.
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I think you are getting your facts vs. rumors information confused here. There were numerous people killed in fact to face shootings that were not backshootings or prolonged gunfights. And even if not all of them were "man on man" the math works out the same.

When you hear people, either informed or not, say the "Gunsmoke duels" didn't happen, they aren't referencing the face to face gunfight. It is the "duel" part they are talking about where the two gentlemen agree to meet on the street at noon and wait for the bad guy to shoot first. Which, there was supposed to have actually been one instance where it did happen somewhat like that, if I recall correctly.

Unfortunately most of these men didn't write books, unlike the plethora of experts that were never in a gunfight in their lives like we have now. And when they did, it usually wasn't about gunfighting, such as John Wesley Hardins autobiography or Wyatt Earps somewhat questionable biography written by Stuart Lake. But they both did happen to give some insight to the subject at hand. But what did they know?
 
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Jellybean said:
I think you are getting your facts vs. rumors information confused here. There were numerous people killed in fact to face shootings that were not backshootings or prolonged gunfights. And even if not all of them were "man on man" the math works out the same.

When you hear people, either informed or not, say the "Gunsmoke duels" didn't happen, they aren't referencing the face to face gunfight. It is the "duel" part they are talking about where the two gentlemen agree to meet on the street at noon and wait for the bad guy to shoot first. Which, there was supposed to have actually been one instance where it did happen somewhat like that, if I recall correctly.

Unfortunately most of these men didn't write books, unlike the plethora of experts that were never in a gunfight in their lives like we have now. And when they did, it usually wasn't about gunfighting, such as John Wesley Hardins autobiography or Wyatt Earps somewhat questionable biography written by Stuart Lake. But they both did happen to give some insight to the subject at hand. But what did they know?
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We are not talking about duels. We are talking about people with guns drawn and someone else going for a gun. Few gunslingers were fast enough. Duels were among gentlemen. The person out to rob you will not be a gentleman and will pull a trigger before you can get to your gun.
 
The ability to draw quickly and to shoot accurately is a useful skill, if we look at P.4 on the Belly Gun Thread that was started today there is a newspaper article on a succesful use of a fast draw.
Drawing against a gun that is already pointing at you is not a desireable thing, however, if the belief is that the person is going to shoot then it is better than just standing there.
Jelly Bryce drew successfully against a man who was pointing a gun at him. Bill Jordan demonstrated that it could be done successfully, Mr Ayoob tells a good story about such a demonstration. Other people of ability have done it.

We are not talking of recklessness but once the decision has been made the ability to get the gun into action quickly is a necessary skill.

The Tutt Hickock fight is a classic ,if long distance , version of the face off type of gunfight but didn't Luke Short and Jim Courtright also fight a face to face gunfight on the streets of Fort Worth.
NB
 
Assuming that the bad guy doesn't have the same gun skills as you will likely prove fatal. Picture yourself having a gun drawn on someone, already aimed at a kill zone. If he starts pulling his weapon are you gonna miss?
 
oldman45 said:
We are not talking about duels. We are talking about people with guns drawn and someone else going for a gun. Few gunslingers were fast enough. Duels were among gentlemen. The person out to rob you will not be a gentleman and will pull a trigger before you can get to your gun.
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I wasn't talking about duels either, duels were very rare on the western frontier. The gunslinger info you requested had nothing to do with being "robbed", it was serious business. Many of the conflicts that happened in the old west that are now famous, or should be, were of a personal nature and it was usually understood that when the two individuals or factions met there was going to be a gunfight. You seem to think that the old west gunfights and modern robberies are two completely different affairs. Well, you are right, but there is a lot to be learned from history.

Having a person reach for a gun while the other guy had him covered did happen in the old west, it was either that or die without a chance. There were also many gunfights were both participants went for their guns at about the same time, but the first to fire didn't always win like they do on TV. And there were times when the gunfight was half over before the second shooter even drew his weapon, there again he wasn't always the loser.

The person out to rob you will not be a gentleman and will pull a trigger before you can get to your gun.
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And if he decides to shoot you anyway, for whatever reason, your advice is to stand there and take it like a man? There's a very good chance he'll miss, but for how long will depend on him. Wether or not you even get a chance to win depends on you.

Here are a couple other incidents that are not old west lore. My memory is fading fast but these can be researched, just like many of the western gunfights.

There was an incident as I recall where Delf Bryce entered a hotel room to arrest a suspect. The suspect was pointing two 1911s at the doorway but when Mr. Bryce entered and saw him, he pulled his revolver from under his coat and shot him five times in the head before the suspect could fire once.

I remember watching a training film, based on a real incident, of a US Marshall I believe, that was escorting a suspect along with a female agent. The suspect had a female friend/wife/etc. covertly get the drop on the two Marshalls in a well planned scheme to set him free. The bad guy got a gun, either from the lady friend or from the lady agent, I don't recall which, but had it pointed at the male agent. At the same time the bad girl was trying to find his weapon under his coat, but she was looking on the right side not realizing he was wearing it on the left side. ( It was either in a shoulder rig or crossdraw holster, not sure which.) He had his eyes welded on the bad guys eyes and when he noticed the bad guy glance away to look at the other Marshall, he pushed the bad girl away, drew his weapon and killed the bad guy before he could get a shot off. The Marshall said he had learned this from Masaad Ayoobs writings and had practiced it on a regular basis.

Quoted from Nick B:
...didn't Luke Short and Jim Courtright also fight a face to face gunfight on the streets of Fort Worth.
NB
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They certainly did. There was some bad blood between them and people felt it was going to end in gunplay, which meant the death of Luke Short since he wasn't a gunfighter and "Longhaired Jim" Courtright was a good one. Unfortunately stories vary as to exactly what happened, as is usual with these old tales, but two versions I've heard are: 1) They drew about the same time with Short getting the first shot off, which went wild, but it managed to hit Courtrights right thumb removing it from his hand. Courtright tried the border shift technique to shift hands so he could cock his single action revolver to shoot Short, but Short had time to make sure his second shot hit Courtright with a fatal wound. 2) They were standing very close together when Courtright pulled a gun and tried to shoot Short, but the hammer got caught up in Shorts watch chain. Short then drew his own revolver and fired a shot which hit the cylinder in Courtrights revolver making it unusable. Short then emptied his revolver hitting Courtright several times, one of which was in his heart.
 
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If someone points a gun at me I will draw and fight. I can reasonably assume the other guy means to do me harm. I have been around long enough to know that I should not to rely on the mercy of others. No one on this forum can predict how it will turn out. One thing is certain, if you don't draw the fight will be very one sided.
 
There are hundreds of thousands of armed robberies each year but the clerks are not killed.

I believe the majority of the homicides will be between known accquanitances.

As to history, people need to read the link I posted above. History has a way of making people heroes and that includes LEO shootouts. I have been on the scene of shootings and know that they did not happen as the media or community publically stated. There are stories told about some recent exhibition shooters that said they could toss a quarter in the air and shoot it twice before it hit the ground. That is not possible. Once the quarter is hit, it is gone very fast in another direction. The hype is just to glorify the shooter. I had a friend (LEO) that was fatally shot. It was stated that after being hit, he still returned fire. If he did, he had a gun nobody could find because his sidearm was never fired. Yes, people can get lucky and some even are trained to look for opportunities but not all are trained to be hostage negotiator or remain calm under duress. I have seen veteran officers have bowel problems after a stressful confrontation.

I will not try to outdraw a person pointing a gun at me. It becomes time for soft spoken talk. The odds are against me if I go for a gun. The odds say the armed person will not shoot me if I do not anger him. Believe it or not, the criminal fully understands he will face either the death penalty or life in prison for killing someone during the commission of a crime. That stops many from shooting and those I interviewed invovled in armed robberies have told me they did not kill witnesses unless they had to do so because they did not want to spend life in jail or be executed.


Now if you are worried about a jealous husband or a scorned wife, then all bets are off and you best try to get your gun.
 
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I can't remember who said it but the saying was..."Speed is good but accuracy is final."
 
You wanna see fast, get on the internet and watch Bob Munden do fast draw and shoot. He fires two shots so fast it appears as one
 
Quoted from oldman45:As to history, people need to read the link I posted above.
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I went back and read some of the stories listed in your link. They have been edited and butchered from whatever source they copied them from to the point they aren't worth reading, at least not if you want to know what really might have happened. This is a problem with the internet, people read things that have been hacked from some other source and never really know the whole story.

As for the rest of your opinions, they say a lot about your qualifications for forming them. It's your soapbox, say whatever you want, but I'm not listening anymore.
 
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oldman45; thousands of armed robberies each year but the clerks are not killed......I will not try to outdraw a person pointing a gun at me. It becomes time for soft spoken talk. The odds are against me if I go for a gun. The odds say the armed person will not shoot me if I do not anger him. QUOTE said:
The above points are valid but what if the odds are not with you ?

What if you have to do something ? What if fast positive action is required ? Do you have the ability to take that action.

John Farnams DTI Quips have the story of the Gurkha on the train that was robbed - too long to repeat but worth a read - he did nothing until action was forced on him, then he reacted with speed and skill to a very positive conclusion.

No it is not your first choice of action but it might be the only choice you are left with.
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This is a Leo example of speed. In 1978 I drove up on a vehicle whose driver had just robbed, kidnapped and sexually assaulted a convienience store clerk. He did all this on impulse and then realized that because he was a frequent customer, she would be able to identify him. He stated in his confession that he was about to shoot her in the head when he saw my headlights coming down the road. He made her get into his car and then took off. I began pursuing. When he realized he could not outrun me, he slammed on the brakes, jumped out of his door with his revolver already cocked with the intention of killing me and taking my car. I had to jam on the brakes to keep from hitting his vehicle. The next thing I know is that he is standin in front of my vehicle holding a revolver in an isocelese stance pointing it right at me. He said my bright lights kind of made him hesitate for a second cause it was hard to see me. His plan was to shoot me as I exited my vehicle. I had reached down to turn the siren off and when I looked up, there he was. Years of practice and trainging kicked in and without really thinking about it, my 44 boomed through my windshield and the bad guy dropped like he was poleaxed. He had fainted. The only thing that touched him was the glass out of the windshield.

He survived and went to prison. I was named Deputy of the year. I was carrying a Smith 29 in a Jordan Border Patrol holster worn the way Bill Jordan intended with the safety strap snapped out of the way. A leathersmith had helped me put a tension screw between the barrel and the welt of the hoster so tightening or loosening a Chicago Screw would adjust the tension on the revolver making it tight enough to stay in the holster but available for instant draw. The holster had quite a bit of forward rake. With it form fitted to the revolver and the correct amount of tention, it was almost impossible to snatch from behind. Snatching it from the front wasn't going to work cause you would get 5 rounds of 44 Special from the Bulldog I carried in my off hand pants pocket.

If a guy has the drop on you, you better be able to draw and fire faster than he can react and pull the trigger. Not impossible since most peoples reaction time is 3/4 second or longer. As far as off duty or concealed carry, if you look up and see some demented sociopath coming toward you with a knife or a club, you'd better be able to bring your sidearm into action before he reaches you. Otherwise the anti-gunners will be saying how you should not have been carrying a gun after he knocks you unconscious and then kills you with your own weapon. Remember Jeff Cooper. Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas means Accuracy, Power, and SPEED.

During this colder weather, I can carry a revolver in my hand in my jacket pocket and no one will be able to tell. Already having the gun in my hand and just firing through the jacket pocket is extremely fast and you have made no movement to telegraph your intentions to your opponent. If you were walking to your car in a parking lot at night and an armed carjacker approached, the first hint that you were not going to submit would be the boom of a 357 or 38 and the funny feeling he'd get when a 125 grain slug enters his solar plexus and exits his spine.
 
Gabe Suarez and his training philosophy are controversial in many quarters, but it's worth pointing out that in some of his courses this scenario -- reacting to a drawn and pointed weapon by moving off the "X", while drawing and firing one's own weapon at the threat -- shows surprising success. This is done with paintball and simunitions guns, of course.

One should not discount being able to react successfully given any opportunity to do so.
 
Murdock said:
reacting to a drawn and pointed weapon by moving off the "X", while drawing and firing one's own weapon at the threat -- shows surprising success.

One should not discount being able to react successfully given any opportunity to do so.
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Well Boys,
Right there ya go...



*As a side note to all this here sheep dip,
I had a meth tweaker throw down on me in a short hallway once...
Well, let's jest say he quit the tweakin' business.

No, I ain't fast...Just willin'

Su Amigo,
Dave
 
Well... An interesting discussion and it does remind one of all the assumptions of gunfighting. We all have to study the subject and come to our own conclusions... and live or die by them.
 
Having seen quite a few inner-city shootings over the years, it has become clear to me that most assailants can't shoot worth a damn, even at close range. Moreover, they don't read Ayoob and they don't know or care who he is. Many of the assailants (and victims) I have encountered can be characterized as "uncivilized" and they give animals a bad name. Many of these shootings are so bizarre that if you heard them you'd think they must be fiction. Of course many of these "victims" are in fact the moral equivalent of their assailants. In light of this, I have seen incidents where victims have disarmed their assailants and shot them (or shot at them) with their own guns. I believe that this type of activity happens more often than we are lead to believe. The moral of the story is that savage, mind numbing violence really can be a good and effective response to a lethal threat, even when things are looking very bad. As nice, law-abiding human beings, we have been conditioned to use less than ideal force and it is often to our own detriment. Of course there are obvious dangers in attempting to out-draw somebody who had a gun pointed at you, but in this situation ANY action you take can still result in your getting shot. We all possess different degrees of gun handling skill and humanity and compassion, so what might for one clearly will not work for all.

Dave Sinko
 
IIRC this robber got the drop on seven men and made them lie down as he took their valuables. One of the seven men had a concealed weapon which he was able to draw. When the robber saw the holster the shooting started. Don't recall who fired first, think it was the robber. I think I read the good guy thought the robber was going to shoot them all. Both survived hits that were serious but not life threatening. Close range shooting.

Early report (scroll down): Man arrested in Jefferson City shooting : News : ConnectMidMissouri.com .

Convicted.
http://www.colecopa.com/news/110111 release.pdf

Man convicted in 2009 downtown robbery-shooting | News Tribune

Just an interesting scenario, robber had the drop on the victims, but there was so much going on the good guy had a moment to get his weapon out and ready.
 
I'm frequently the range officer at the club where I shoot. Several times, men and women with little or no experience have come out (usually with a gun-owning friend or relative) to try pistol shooting. If there's not much going on, I take this as an opportunity to try an experiment.

I set up an IPDA target at about 5 yards and have the new shooter start from low ready and fire when they hear the timer, trying to hit the chest area. The only practice is allowing the shooter to raise and dry-firing a couple of times. Almost every time, the shooter is able to get an acceptable hit within one (1) second of the buzzer.

It's hard for most to draw from normal concealment and fire in under 2 seconds. If .5 of that is reaction to the buzzer, you're going to be shooting a half second after the opponent has fired, all things being equal.

This is a simple demonstration. It leaves out many of the factors involved in a self-defense shooting, like mind-set, focus, distractions, type of gear involved, etc. For example, someone using a vest for concealment and an open top holster, may be able to draw and fire in well under 1.5 seconds. Change the outfit to what a many wear and draw time will double or triple.
 
Somewhere I read a study on all the NYPD shootings going back 100+ years.

Faded memory Recalls bits and pieces... most incidents involving police deaths were essentially ambushes, in the dark, in terrible lighting conditions. I imagine many were in pursuit of the BG

Survival rates logically increased with distance, movement, and finding cover.

I recall the average fight being 6 feet and 3 shots in total.

It changed my way of thinking from Glocks and high capacity to a snubbie in a pocket.

I think common sense, coupled with awareness, not allowing other within a certain "personal zone" helps to eliminate a lot of factors resulting in possible confrontations... if all else fails there is Plan B which is 158 grains exiting right front coat pocket.

It's not overconfidence, but I'm comfortable with the belief that I already have the drop on the BG. Better than drawing in a no win situation or begging for mercy.
 
I know one guy who walked in on a hold-up in progress, in uniform, and was taken by surprise when the hold-up man, who was standing in line, put a gun to his head and told him not to go for his gun. He went for his gun from the holster and shot the guy in the gut with a .357 Super Vel round and dropped him. Another guy, in plain clothes, walked out of a liquor store and was held-up on the sidewalk. Bad guy put a gun to his head and told him to "check it in". Good guy said: "OK, I'm just getting my wallet, don't shoot..." And drew his Glock from his waistband near his wallet and shot the hold-up man in the throat.

I know of another local guy who was robbed outside a bar. He turned over his wallet like they told him to and they shot him anyway. He pulled his gun(s) after being shot and killed one of the hold-up men and wounded the other.

Draw speed a myth? To each his own I guess. It's all just "bench racing" until it's you making the decisions for real.
 
Quite the heated debate! All the posts here assume the BG will have a gun. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most armed attacks involve a knife? In that case draw speed could save your life.
The reason I applied for my ccw was a vagrant approached me in broad daylight and pulled a folding knife threatening to cut me.
 
"The reason I applied for my ccw was a vagrant approached me in broad daylight and pulled a folding knife threatening to cut me. "


I have heard of people like that, bringing a knife to a gunfight.. Seems like they lose almost all the time..


Dave
 
The last disagreement I had with someone that wanted to "Borrow" my wallet pulled a knife on me. Situation was close enough that I could not get to the M37 fast enough without getting sliced. When she turned to the woman that was with me the last thing she expected was a Stanley 30' Fat Max tape measure slap to the side of the head. Too bad she fell through the glass in the window.

Class III
 
mikerault said:
Remember a wounded enemy requires 2 to take care of him. A dead one takes none.
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I've noticed that the last few dozen US enemies don't take care of their wounded
until After the Battle, if at all...some considered it very dishonorable to get wounded & not die...
some others just had no Esprit de Corps...which meant if you got shot, you were on your own...
same for gang members...unless a relative is on scene, you fall, you are on your own...

Conversely, a dead enemy can't shoot back...
whereas a wounded one can definitely ruin your day by continuing to shoot...
which to me means, incapacitate, then finalize every enemy you come across,
so that they cannot do the same to you. Treat 'em like zombies. Make Sure.
 
A gun in hand is quicker than the draw, if you are aware of your surroundings. If I had missed all the warning signs and allowed the bad guy to get the drop on me, depending on the distance between us, I would be closing the gap to deal with the weapon or look for something heavy to get behind until I could get to mine. Out drawing someone is "Hollyweird" BS and will get you hurt!
 
Observation: No one mentions observing the bad guy's posture, demeanor, gun and distance.

Guy standing 6' in front of me, visibly cocked weapon in hand held steadily in a "normal" position, calm enough to appear to know what he's doing? Yes sir, here is my money.

Guy 10' in front of me, uncocked DA revolver - especially a SatNiteSpec *** - held sideways gangsta style, twitching?

I'm going for my gun while dodging like hell.

Guy at any distance dumb enough to have a 1911 style uncocked? Call the meat wagon... Nobody said criminals are smart.

A guy can observe a lot by just watching... YB.
 
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Guy 10' in front of me, uncocked DA revolver - especially a SatNiteSpec *** - held sideways gangsta style, twitching?

I'm going for my gun while dodging like hell.

In that case, don't dodge, you might dodge right into his errant shot ;)

Kinda like the safest place to stand on the golf course is the middle of the fairway! LOL.

Why not be quick on the draw? It then gives you more time to place a shot even if milliseconds.

Look at the reverse.

what are the disadvantages of a quick draw? NONE.
 
what are the disadvantages of a quick draw? NONE.
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+1

When I was shooting USPSA regularly and practicing regularly, we did the "Bill Drill". At 7 yds from the holster, hands at shoulder level, draw at the buzzer & place 6 rounds into the A zone (about the size/shape of a the lid of a small shoe box) as fast as possible without missing. Speed up til you miss; slow down til you're back on 100% hits.

On a good day, 2.1 seconds, hands at shoulder height, from the holster, I could run off 6 hits.

Granted, an untrained bad guy can shoot a lot of rounds in 2 seconds, too, but will he hit anything?

Here's a random video from youtube of a guy doing a really good Bill Drill from concealment: 6 rounds on target in 1.98 seconds.

Oops! How do you do direct video?
 
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