The myth of draw speed

I like a Cooper-ism:

9mm - wounding the enemies of the state since 1903.
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And a Haley-ism:

Life is too short to carry an ugly plastic gun in a weenie caliber.
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oldman45... they read, but they don't heed. Like you and I, it'll take a lot of experience and a lot of righteous practice. Fact is, though, some won't make it - regardless.

The trouble with "speed practice" is that often times, speed becomes the paramount goal. That's a fatal mistake.
 
Remember a wounded enemy requires 2 to take care of him. A dead one takes none.
 
oldman45 said:
The fact you omitted is both those in the examples you mentioned carried open and practiced hours each day.

Concealed carry is vastly different. Also Bill Jordan was a great man personally and wonderful to be around but he modified his equipment to suit his needs. The avg shooter will not modify a $200 holster with an exacto knife or leave it sitting in a bucket of dishwater so it will conform to the bun better.

In my long life, I have been on the scene of many, many shootings and present at the time of a few. Only once that I can remember that a man pulled on the badguy and won.
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One ~very~ important variable is moving. Your probability of being hit goes way down if you move and draw. Gabe Suarez has done much research on this. Very interesting. If the "good guy" stands and delivers, so to speak, he has a very high chance of getting hit. If (explosively) moves while drawing and returning fire, he has a very high chance of ~not~ being hit.
 
oldman45 said:
I would ask the resident historians around here just what gunslingers were killed in face to face fast draws.

There is none I know of.
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I guess Davis/David Tutt qualified as a gambler, not a gunfighter, but his fatal encounter with J.B. Hickhock was at least close to a fast draw and certainly provided the model for the future novelists.
 
The situation that you find yourself in at "that moment" will dictate what you do or don't do, try or don't try so that you survive. If it comes down to it, and I think I'm fixing to catch a pill, you better believe I'm going to try to outdraw a drawn gun. You can bet I won't be static when I do it.
 
There are some common sense facts involved that have not been mentioned yet.

1. Not every time a gun is pulled on someone, be it in anger, robbery or whatever will end in someone being shot. If it did, we would have hundreds of thousands of shootings each year.

2. The majority of time, the tone of those invovled will dictate if a shot will be fired. That is why those being robbed is advised to be polite and give the robber the items asked for.

3. Pulling a defensive weapon will almost assure someone, good guy or bad guy, will be shot.

4. Depending on where this takes place can factor in if the good guy, assuming he lives through it, is charged with shooting the bad guy or possibly endangerment.

5. Because a good guy has a gun does not mean he has to use it. This was a lesson I learned in 1981 that almost ended very ugly and I would have gone to jail despite a half dozen witnesses to a crime in progress.
 
In Iai, the Japanese art of drawing the sword, the goal is to get so good at drawing the sword that the enemy immediately capitulates. But the favorite story is about a true master involved a boat ride where a blowhard recognized a master and called him out, despite repeated refusals the blowhard pressed the master into a dual. The Master said "Ok, but let us do it on that island there so we do not endanger innocent people on the boat." The boatman put in to the island, the blowhard leaped off first and the Master then pushed the boat off from shore and waved goodbye to the blow hard.

Being able to use your weapon is only one half of what you need to know, knowing when to use it is the other half.
 
oldman45 said:
I would ask the resident historians around here just what gunslingers were killed in face to face fast draws.

There is none I know of. Most of the wild west people were shot in the back ambushed or else hit while in a prolnged gunfight where there was adequate concealment.

The days of Gunsmoke duels is something for television.
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I think you are getting your facts vs. rumors information confused here. There were numerous people killed in fact to face shootings that were not backshootings or prolonged gunfights. And even if not all of them were "man on man" the math works out the same.

When you hear people, either informed or not, say the "Gunsmoke duels" didn't happen, they aren't referencing the face to face gunfight. It is the "duel" part they are talking about where the two gentlemen agree to meet on the street at noon and wait for the bad guy to shoot first. Which, there was supposed to have actually been one instance where it did happen somewhat like that, if I recall correctly.

Unfortunately most of these men didn't write books, unlike the plethora of experts that were never in a gunfight in their lives like we have now. And when they did, it usually wasn't about gunfighting, such as John Wesley Hardins autobiography or Wyatt Earps somewhat questionable biography written by Stuart Lake. But they both did happen to give some insight to the subject at hand. But what did they know?
 
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Jellybean said:
I think you are getting your facts vs. rumors information confused here. There were numerous people killed in fact to face shootings that were not backshootings or prolonged gunfights. And even if not all of them were "man on man" the math works out the same.

When you hear people, either informed or not, say the "Gunsmoke duels" didn't happen, they aren't referencing the face to face gunfight. It is the "duel" part they are talking about where the two gentlemen agree to meet on the street at noon and wait for the bad guy to shoot first. Which, there was supposed to have actually been one instance where it did happen somewhat like that, if I recall correctly.

Unfortunately most of these men didn't write books, unlike the plethora of experts that were never in a gunfight in their lives like we have now. And when they did, it usually wasn't about gunfighting, such as John Wesley Hardins autobiography or Wyatt Earps somewhat questionable biography written by Stuart Lake. But they both did happen to give some insight to the subject at hand. But what did they know?
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We are not talking about duels. We are talking about people with guns drawn and someone else going for a gun. Few gunslingers were fast enough. Duels were among gentlemen. The person out to rob you will not be a gentleman and will pull a trigger before you can get to your gun.
 
The ability to draw quickly and to shoot accurately is a useful skill, if we look at P.4 on the Belly Gun Thread that was started today there is a newspaper article on a succesful use of a fast draw.
Drawing against a gun that is already pointing at you is not a desireable thing, however, if the belief is that the person is going to shoot then it is better than just standing there.
Jelly Bryce drew successfully against a man who was pointing a gun at him. Bill Jordan demonstrated that it could be done successfully, Mr Ayoob tells a good story about such a demonstration. Other people of ability have done it.

We are not talking of recklessness but once the decision has been made the ability to get the gun into action quickly is a necessary skill.

The Tutt Hickock fight is a classic ,if long distance , version of the face off type of gunfight but didn't Luke Short and Jim Courtright also fight a face to face gunfight on the streets of Fort Worth.
NB
 
Assuming that the bad guy doesn't have the same gun skills as you will likely prove fatal. Picture yourself having a gun drawn on someone, already aimed at a kill zone. If he starts pulling his weapon are you gonna miss?
 
oldman45 said:
We are not talking about duels. We are talking about people with guns drawn and someone else going for a gun. Few gunslingers were fast enough. Duels were among gentlemen. The person out to rob you will not be a gentleman and will pull a trigger before you can get to your gun.
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I wasn't talking about duels either, duels were very rare on the western frontier. The gunslinger info you requested had nothing to do with being "robbed", it was serious business. Many of the conflicts that happened in the old west that are now famous, or should be, were of a personal nature and it was usually understood that when the two individuals or factions met there was going to be a gunfight. You seem to think that the old west gunfights and modern robberies are two completely different affairs. Well, you are right, but there is a lot to be learned from history.

Having a person reach for a gun while the other guy had him covered did happen in the old west, it was either that or die without a chance. There were also many gunfights were both participants went for their guns at about the same time, but the first to fire didn't always win like they do on TV. And there were times when the gunfight was half over before the second shooter even drew his weapon, there again he wasn't always the loser.

The person out to rob you will not be a gentleman and will pull a trigger before you can get to your gun.
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And if he decides to shoot you anyway, for whatever reason, your advice is to stand there and take it like a man? There's a very good chance he'll miss, but for how long will depend on him. Wether or not you even get a chance to win depends on you.

Here are a couple other incidents that are not old west lore. My memory is fading fast but these can be researched, just like many of the western gunfights.

There was an incident as I recall where Delf Bryce entered a hotel room to arrest a suspect. The suspect was pointing two 1911s at the doorway but when Mr. Bryce entered and saw him, he pulled his revolver from under his coat and shot him five times in the head before the suspect could fire once.

I remember watching a training film, based on a real incident, of a US Marshall I believe, that was escorting a suspect along with a female agent. The suspect had a female friend/wife/etc. covertly get the drop on the two Marshalls in a well planned scheme to set him free. The bad guy got a gun, either from the lady friend or from the lady agent, I don't recall which, but had it pointed at the male agent. At the same time the bad girl was trying to find his weapon under his coat, but she was looking on the right side not realizing he was wearing it on the left side. ( It was either in a shoulder rig or crossdraw holster, not sure which.) He had his eyes welded on the bad guys eyes and when he noticed the bad guy glance away to look at the other Marshall, he pushed the bad girl away, drew his weapon and killed the bad guy before he could get a shot off. The Marshall said he had learned this from Masaad Ayoobs writings and had practiced it on a regular basis.

Quoted from Nick B:
...didn't Luke Short and Jim Courtright also fight a face to face gunfight on the streets of Fort Worth.
NB
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They certainly did. There was some bad blood between them and people felt it was going to end in gunplay, which meant the death of Luke Short since he wasn't a gunfighter and "Longhaired Jim" Courtright was a good one. Unfortunately stories vary as to exactly what happened, as is usual with these old tales, but two versions I've heard are: 1) They drew about the same time with Short getting the first shot off, which went wild, but it managed to hit Courtrights right thumb removing it from his hand. Courtright tried the border shift technique to shift hands so he could cock his single action revolver to shoot Short, but Short had time to make sure his second shot hit Courtright with a fatal wound. 2) They were standing very close together when Courtright pulled a gun and tried to shoot Short, but the hammer got caught up in Shorts watch chain. Short then drew his own revolver and fired a shot which hit the cylinder in Courtrights revolver making it unusable. Short then emptied his revolver hitting Courtright several times, one of which was in his heart.
 
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If someone points a gun at me I will draw and fight. I can reasonably assume the other guy means to do me harm. I have been around long enough to know that I should not to rely on the mercy of others. No one on this forum can predict how it will turn out. One thing is certain, if you don't draw the fight will be very one sided.
 
There are hundreds of thousands of armed robberies each year but the clerks are not killed.

I believe the majority of the homicides will be between known accquanitances.

As to history, people need to read the link I posted above. History has a way of making people heroes and that includes LEO shootouts. I have been on the scene of shootings and know that they did not happen as the media or community publically stated. There are stories told about some recent exhibition shooters that said they could toss a quarter in the air and shoot it twice before it hit the ground. That is not possible. Once the quarter is hit, it is gone very fast in another direction. The hype is just to glorify the shooter. I had a friend (LEO) that was fatally shot. It was stated that after being hit, he still returned fire. If he did, he had a gun nobody could find because his sidearm was never fired. Yes, people can get lucky and some even are trained to look for opportunities but not all are trained to be hostage negotiator or remain calm under duress. I have seen veteran officers have bowel problems after a stressful confrontation.

I will not try to outdraw a person pointing a gun at me. It becomes time for soft spoken talk. The odds are against me if I go for a gun. The odds say the armed person will not shoot me if I do not anger him. Believe it or not, the criminal fully understands he will face either the death penalty or life in prison for killing someone during the commission of a crime. That stops many from shooting and those I interviewed invovled in armed robberies have told me they did not kill witnesses unless they had to do so because they did not want to spend life in jail or be executed.


Now if you are worried about a jealous husband or a scorned wife, then all bets are off and you best try to get your gun.
 
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I can't remember who said it but the saying was..."Speed is good but accuracy is final."
 
You wanna see fast, get on the internet and watch Bob Munden do fast draw and shoot. He fires two shots so fast it appears as one
 
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