Welcome to the dark side. Things aren't what they used to be, but then they never were.
The "new" S&W Model 19
- Thread starter sniper
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Welcome to the dark side. Things aren't what they used to be, but then they never were.
smithra_66
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I keep saying I'm going to buy one of these "newer" S&Ws, but each time I see that idiotic lock I get dry heaves.
I own a ton of old pinned pre-1981s and love them all. I do see a few new features on the modern guns that I'm sure solved some problems of the old, but so far I just can't do it.
I did buy a new Python and I was happy to see it's actually better than the old in most ways....but I'm sure if they put a key lock on it I wouldn't have been able to do that one either.
I own a ton of old pinned pre-1981s and love them all. I do see a few new features on the modern guns that I'm sure solved some problems of the old, but so far I just can't do it.
I did buy a new Python and I was happy to see it's actually better than the old in most ways....but I'm sure if they put a key lock on it I wouldn't have been able to do that one either.
I have been very happy with my new production models 66 and 69. As previously mentioned, I would prefer a brushed stainless rather than a bead blast finish but they have been fine functionally. I did put a spring kit in the 69 which greatly improved the trigger and action.
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Regarding quality and appeal of new vs. older S&Ws in general...almost all of my S&Ws are more than twenty-five years old, some much older, some I bought new more than forty year ago. They've all been fired considerably with cast bullets. All have held up well.
I only have two "new era" revolvers, a 638-3 and a 22-4. Both these were new when I got them about twelve to fifteen years ago. I have a number of j-frame snub nose .38s that I shoot regularly. These are all "no dash" guns (I realize dashes or lack of dashes are important to some). Surprisingly, the 638 is consistently the most accurate shooter of the bunch. I shoot at 25 yards, Bullseye style. A 36 square butt snub nose is the closest contender.
Granted, the 638 doesn't have the eye appeal of the older guns, but I can overlook that small shortcoming in exchange for the accuracy, something that's important to some and very secondary to others. Granted, results based on one gun don't tell much and/or I may have the only good, accurate 638 ever produced. It's easy for me to simply ignore the lock, but I realize this is an impossibility for the "intolerant and proud of it" segment.
I only have two "new era" revolvers, a 638-3 and a 22-4. Both these were new when I got them about twelve to fifteen years ago. I have a number of j-frame snub nose .38s that I shoot regularly. These are all "no dash" guns (I realize dashes or lack of dashes are important to some). Surprisingly, the 638 is consistently the most accurate shooter of the bunch. I shoot at 25 yards, Bullseye style. A 36 square butt snub nose is the closest contender.
Granted, the 638 doesn't have the eye appeal of the older guns, but I can overlook that small shortcoming in exchange for the accuracy, something that's important to some and very secondary to others. Granted, results based on one gun don't tell much and/or I may have the only good, accurate 638 ever produced. It's easy for me to simply ignore the lock, but I realize this is an impossibility for the "intolerant and proud of it" segment.
cmj8591
Member
I think the people who are complaining about quality are too young to have purchased a Bangor-Punta or a Lear-Siegler gun. Some of the stuff they put out was pure junk.
Horseapple
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Old guns are like old cars or girlfriends. Nostalgia (sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past, typically for a period or place with happy personal associations).Who would not trade a 30 year old "normal used car" for a new one unless you want to live in the past. Older is not better and memories can be molded to ones own use. Also you may not want to admit you are/were wrong.
The struggle with this argument is that a whole slew of people who are firmly in both sides willfully ignore the largest pro of the other side and the largest con of their side.
If you are part of team "old S&W" then more often than not, you ignore the fact that so many of the parts are made to exacting standards these days, and this is a very good thing. You also ignore the new barrel design which is proving again and again to be a fantastic thing. (in fact, Dan Wesson proved this decades ago.) And there is often very little factory support for you if you need it, especially if something catastrophic happens.
If you are part of team "new S&W" then you have either had incredible luck or you are basing your opinion on a very small sample size, because S&W apparently has no QC department in Springfield, it has been wholly outsourced to the consumer. The mothership has sent more failures out in the last 3 years than in the first 150 before it. And this has shown no sign of improvement. And if you can't see how the older revolvers have a better double action pull, weight and smoothness, then there is a chance you never will. (which is fine, but folks who do know and can tell are not making it up)
At the end of the day, the folks who can't stand the new ones should be thrilled that some folks really like them, because that takes at least one segment of the buying population out of the market for older guns. And the guys who love the new ones and think the other group are just cranky old dudes should be happy that their walkers and canes aren't blocking the gun case at the LGS.
If you are part of team "old S&W" then more often than not, you ignore the fact that so many of the parts are made to exacting standards these days, and this is a very good thing. You also ignore the new barrel design which is proving again and again to be a fantastic thing. (in fact, Dan Wesson proved this decades ago.) And there is often very little factory support for you if you need it, especially if something catastrophic happens.
If you are part of team "new S&W" then you have either had incredible luck or you are basing your opinion on a very small sample size, because S&W apparently has no QC department in Springfield, it has been wholly outsourced to the consumer. The mothership has sent more failures out in the last 3 years than in the first 150 before it. And this has shown no sign of improvement. And if you can't see how the older revolvers have a better double action pull, weight and smoothness, then there is a chance you never will. (which is fine, but folks who do know and can tell are not making it up)
At the end of the day, the folks who can't stand the new ones should be thrilled that some folks really like them, because that takes at least one segment of the buying population out of the market for older guns. And the guys who love the new ones and think the other group are just cranky old dudes should be happy that their walkers and canes aren't blocking the gun case at the LGS.
In the news..."(S&W delivered) over 1.8 million units in the first three quarters of our fiscal year alone"
So we get a handful of posts a week complaining about quality. I mean we should be getting like a ten thousand a week if S&W is as bad as some here think.
So we get a handful of posts a week complaining about quality. I mean we should be getting like a ten thousand a week if S&W is as bad as some here think.
UncleEd
Member
And since they were "fixed," nobody is the
wiser how bad they started out.
The trouble with gun forums is that too many
older members have faulty memories and too
many younger members have no memories at
all.
Hair Trigger
US Veteran
That doesn't necessarily mean the parts wouldn't benefit from some hand-fitting. A good revolver is more like a high-end pocket watch than an engine. Even MIM and CNC parts will vary in fine dimension from one lot to another. They might be a drop-in fit, but they never feel as smooth as one of the older guns.
If you are happy with it, good on you, shoot it until they quit making ammo for it. Just don't ruin yourself and shoot a well-kept older one to compare.
All the S&W's I own were made in the Bangor Punta era, and they are still of the older, hand-fitted, high quality finish era. Some of the most desirable S&W models come from those years, the culmination of the "pre-model number" guns from before BP bought controlling interest in the company in 1965.
I think Tompkins plc and Saf-T-Hammer did more to change the spirit and quality of S&W than anything else has.
smithra_66
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yyyyyeah but.....guns don't wear as fast as cars and gun technology certainly isn't as rapidly-changing as car technology.
case in point: would you trade your modern model 29 "Classic" for a mint condition S prefix model 29?
I'm going to bet the answer is yes!
Nope. It wouldn't be mint condition after I shot it a bunch.
Saying gun technology hasn't changed is like saying cars haven't changed because they still have four wheels.
smithra_66
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So you would not trade a new 29 Classic for a vintage S- prefix 29 in good condition?
Huh? There's a reason they are worth 2 to 3x more money today!
I didn't say it hasn't changed at all, I said it's nowhere near as fast as car technology.
There's nothing materially different about new revolvers that is better "tech wise" than a revolver made, say, in the 1960s. Often the only difference is in quality of fit and finish which was almost always better back then.
dandd
Member
Thanks sniper! You're initial question and suggestion was spot-on. Been a gunblue490 fan for a few years. My quest for an original model 19 and extensive research on the 19-X versions was challenging. Choices, choices and then how much coin. Eventually bought a new "Classic Model 19" (9/2018) and though I love the model, I started experiencing "particle spray-back" after a few range visits (approx 200 rounds). Long to short, contacted S&W, they sent the RMA and after a few weeks (maybe a month), sent it back. Works fine now, but gave me the willies that a new, classic-reintroduced would have manufacturing quality issues.
Almost all my wheelguns are BP or LS. I never had a problem with any of them.
Maybe......I just don't like that "zerk fitting" on the front end of the 2 pc barrels. Or the fatter shrouds covering the spooled barrel.
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Echo40
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The tired old adage that is; "They sure don't make 'em like they used to..." Will prevail indefinitely thanks to a potent combination of nostalgia and ignorance. From older folks waxing poetic about how everything was better back in the day despite any number of wars, socio-political issues, and disasters which may have been going on in the faded background of an otherwise treasured memory, to the younger generation who doesn't know any better and is basing their opinion of superiority purely on the aesthetics, which was frankly the only legitimate part which was actually indisputably better in the past.
Ignorance is the larger problem though, because anyone can buy an old gun that has been broken in or otherwise been tuned by a gunsmith somewhere down the line, then assume none the wiser that they were all just like that out of the box.
That being said, they are the minority, otherwise I wouldn't be having so much trouble finding a Smith & Wesson 629 for a decent price because everyone would shun modern examples over "That dern hillary hole" or "Dem Goodyear grips" or because "They ain't got no pinned barrel n' recessed cylinders on 'em, dagnabbit!"
Ignorance is the larger problem though, because anyone can buy an old gun that has been broken in or otherwise been tuned by a gunsmith somewhere down the line, then assume none the wiser that they were all just like that out of the box.
That being said, they are the minority, otherwise I wouldn't be having so much trouble finding a Smith & Wesson 629 for a decent price because everyone would shun modern examples over "That dern hillary hole" or "Dem Goodyear grips" or because "They ain't got no pinned barrel n' recessed cylinders on 'em, dagnabbit!"
I have some older S&W revolvers, I had many more prior to my 2018 fire, a couple of REALLY old ones, and a number of "new" ones, and by new I mean since the advent of the IL. Must I be embarrassed to note that I've never had a problem with any of them? 
BillBro
Member
Gun blue is a pretty good old guy. I certainly don't agree with everything he has to say but he is a veritable goldmine of knowledge and I have learned a thing or two from him, alotbof good reloading tips and techniques that can only come from a lifetime of reloading and shooting.
I saw that video and I believe he was talking about 50 possible "conditions" that can arise from use/misuse/ abuse of the old model 19s and not 50 things that were inherently wrong with that model. He seems to love the newer Smith's, I prefer the older ones.
I saw that video and I believe he was talking about 50 possible "conditions" that can arise from use/misuse/ abuse of the old model 19s and not 50 things that were inherently wrong with that model. He seems to love the newer Smith's, I prefer the older ones.
I'm sure I will be perceived as an old curmudgeon when discussing the old Smith revolvers vs. the new ones. That old-time religion is certainly good enough for me.
THIS is a Model 19:
And THIS is a Model 66:
Never a hint of a problem with either from the get-go. Smooth. Functional. Classy. Accurate. Easy on the eyes. Hand-fitted to perfection.
They ought to have new names for the current iterations. Doing otherwise has been an insult to some really fine old guns.
John
THIS is a Model 19:
And THIS is a Model 66:
Never a hint of a problem with either from the get-go. Smooth. Functional. Classy. Accurate. Easy on the eyes. Hand-fitted to perfection.
They ought to have new names for the current iterations. Doing otherwise has been an insult to some really fine old guns.
John
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