Scorpion520AZ
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The question has been asked . . .
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Pig Hunter
Member
I wish I could remember where I saw a post with pictures, of a guy who shot himself in the right butt cheek. The point of his post was he was using a soft sided cheap IWB holster. The result was somehow the striker fired pistol had the trigger moved enough to result in a nasty flesh wound. This was while the gun was in the holster and the carrier was going about his normal day standing, sitting in chairs and vehicles. Know your equipment and be safety aware. Good thing he was carrying at 4:00 instead of 2:00
Rastoff
US Veteran
If that's the one I'm thinking of, it was a Glock. I don't believe the story as told by the injured man is true. He blames the holster. I blame the shooter. He claims to have been adjusting his holster. Based on what was shown as how the holster caused it, I don't believe his story.
In either case, he's at fault. He should have checked his equipment before using it. He shouldn't have been futzing with his gun in the first place. The gun never should have come out of the holster far enough to cause the ND.
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rednichols
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In the context of excellence in design, all of your examples are very well done. Especially the Galco, which I created (bearing in mind that it follows on from the relatively crude but seminal design of Baker's pancakes.) However, one should avoid the styles that place a strap where the web of the hand would grasp the pistol, because it interferes with a complete, initial grasp. Several layers to that which I won't go into now.
In the context of this thread, none of them can overcome the weakness in the Glock action, so I wouldn't choose any of them including my 1990s pancake there
Seeing Aker's version of the slide, which I recall they didnt originate, I am in the midst of finalizing one of my own that is a step or two beyond that approach.
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rednichols
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And if its the one Im thinking of, it was a Galco that the poster made the point of saying had softened with age. I found his explanation very plausible.
Rastoff
US Veteran
I believe this is the article in question: Worn Leather Holsters SAFETY WARNING: Accidental Discharges
There are a couple of issues I have with this story. He said he was leaning to the left and the gun discharged when he leaned back to the right. That movement would push the gun forward or slightly up and not in the direction necessary to fire the gun. Also, when I look at the pictures of the gun in the holster, the leather is just barely touching the bottom left corner of the trigger. It's not deep enough to deactivate the trigger safety and therefore, would not activate the trigger. Here is the picture I'm talking about:
OK, that's all just my opinion and I wasn't there. It's human nature to try to blame the equipment rather than themselves. Could this holster have done what he said? Yes.
Even so, like I said before, the biggest fail here still rests with the user. He should have checked his equipment prior to putting it on. Anyone who carries a gun should check their equipment every day. The instant they see something that might be an issue, the offending piece of gear should be set aside.
Further, he only owned this holster a year. Chances are the holster was too soft for reliable use long before that year was up. That alone is cause to never buy this particular holster. Any gun holster that becomes this "floppy" after only a year of use is a waste of money and becomes very expensive because it would have to be replaced so often.
There are a couple of issues I have with this story. He said he was leaning to the left and the gun discharged when he leaned back to the right. That movement would push the gun forward or slightly up and not in the direction necessary to fire the gun. Also, when I look at the pictures of the gun in the holster, the leather is just barely touching the bottom left corner of the trigger. It's not deep enough to deactivate the trigger safety and therefore, would not activate the trigger. Here is the picture I'm talking about:
OK, that's all just my opinion and I wasn't there. It's human nature to try to blame the equipment rather than themselves. Could this holster have done what he said? Yes.
Even so, like I said before, the biggest fail here still rests with the user. He should have checked his equipment prior to putting it on. Anyone who carries a gun should check their equipment every day. The instant they see something that might be an issue, the offending piece of gear should be set aside.
Further, he only owned this holster a year. Chances are the holster was too soft for reliable use long before that year was up. That alone is cause to never buy this particular holster. Any gun holster that becomes this "floppy" after only a year of use is a waste of money and becomes very expensive because it would have to be replaced so often.
Since no one else has said anything, and not to distract this thread, you are writing a book on "Holstory"? If so, that is awesome! When will it be available?
BTW. Really like this thread.
RedPointGS
Member
Rastoff about that "appendage" carry ...
... the idea of "appendage" carry would depend on what "appendage" the original poster was referring to, would it not? I mean you could certainly shoot off your "appendage" from that particular position, right? LMAO!
... the idea of "appendage" carry would depend on what "appendage" the original poster was referring to, would it not? I mean you could certainly shoot off your "appendage" from that particular position, right? LMAO!
Yes, I would call carrying a modern striker fired gun with a round in the chamber the same as carrying a 1911 in condition 0; full mag inserted, round chambered, hammer cocked and safety off.
Just a note: The picture posted by SG-688 is not appendix carry (certainly not "appendage" carry). That is what I'd call belly carry and I would not recommend it even in C2 or C3.
RedPointGS
Member
Earlier in this thread the concept of appendix carry was ...
... brought up in relation to a potential negligent discharge into the femoral artery area.
Quick background. I have been shooting for almost 50 years now but I began getting handgun training in the military with the quintessential US Military handgun, the M1911A1. My more in-depth training with handguns began after leaving the US Military. While working as a private investigator/bodyguard in the 1980s, I carried a Colt Combat Commander in a Bianchi Shoulder Holster in Condition One.
Now to the femoral artery issue and why I will never carry a gun in the appendix position. While I was still in a job that involved being shot at, fighting and defending myself in CQC, I had my femoral artery severed with a knife. I knew instantly what had happened and because I had a partner I was able to apply the techniques I had learned in Combat Medical Training. I applied pressure to the site and stopped the blood loss, as best I could, with my fingers, while my partner got the EMTs en route. I don't know many people who have had their femoral artery's severed because most people do not live after it's happened. Blood was pulsing out of my leg about 5 or 6 feet in the air and once you've witnessed that you will never forget it, especially when it is your very own blood. It took three surgeries for me to live, keep my left leg and keep my left foot. The first surgery was performed by a general surgeon and was enough to keep me alive, barely. The next two surgeries were performed by a very talented vascular surgeon and that's when I knew I would live, and keep both my left leg and left foot. As a result of this incident, I will never appendix carry a handgun. I use DeSantis IWB holsters made of leather for both handguns I carry, an S&W M&P Bodyguard 380, with a laser and a safety and an S&W M&P Shield 9mm without a safety or laser. I will only carry the Bodyguard in Condition One, the Shield I carry in Condition Three. I carry them only in the four o'clock position, after all, if I make a mistake I will likely only shoot myself in my derriere. I have a shooting range at our farm and practice, practice and practice some more. I have been asked many times why I chose to buy a Shield without a safety and frankly, I just made a snap decision and decided that I had enough training to be able to put a round in the chamber quickly enough to satisfy 90% of the situations that I might be in where a gun would be needed. If I feel like a situation might demand having a round chambered, I will do that before I exit my car. In my case, it takes so little time to chamber a round in the Shield that it's really not a big deal. I only carry the Shield when the weather is cold enough to warrant people wearing heavy winter clothing. Most of the time that's unnecessary where I live and the ammunition I carry in the .380 satisfies the FBI standards for defensive ammo for both penetration and expansion. Also, I have become quite competent with the Bodyguard as far as accuracy is concerned that I feel very safe with it.
Red Nichols, I have found this thread to be enlightening and entertaining and I thank you for the "holstry" lesson.
... brought up in relation to a potential negligent discharge into the femoral artery area.
Quick background. I have been shooting for almost 50 years now but I began getting handgun training in the military with the quintessential US Military handgun, the M1911A1. My more in-depth training with handguns began after leaving the US Military. While working as a private investigator/bodyguard in the 1980s, I carried a Colt Combat Commander in a Bianchi Shoulder Holster in Condition One.
Now to the femoral artery issue and why I will never carry a gun in the appendix position. While I was still in a job that involved being shot at, fighting and defending myself in CQC, I had my femoral artery severed with a knife. I knew instantly what had happened and because I had a partner I was able to apply the techniques I had learned in Combat Medical Training. I applied pressure to the site and stopped the blood loss, as best I could, with my fingers, while my partner got the EMTs en route. I don't know many people who have had their femoral artery's severed because most people do not live after it's happened. Blood was pulsing out of my leg about 5 or 6 feet in the air and once you've witnessed that you will never forget it, especially when it is your very own blood. It took three surgeries for me to live, keep my left leg and keep my left foot. The first surgery was performed by a general surgeon and was enough to keep me alive, barely. The next two surgeries were performed by a very talented vascular surgeon and that's when I knew I would live, and keep both my left leg and left foot. As a result of this incident, I will never appendix carry a handgun. I use DeSantis IWB holsters made of leather for both handguns I carry, an S&W M&P Bodyguard 380, with a laser and a safety and an S&W M&P Shield 9mm without a safety or laser. I will only carry the Bodyguard in Condition One, the Shield I carry in Condition Three. I carry them only in the four o'clock position, after all, if I make a mistake I will likely only shoot myself in my derriere. I have a shooting range at our farm and practice, practice and practice some more. I have been asked many times why I chose to buy a Shield without a safety and frankly, I just made a snap decision and decided that I had enough training to be able to put a round in the chamber quickly enough to satisfy 90% of the situations that I might be in where a gun would be needed. If I feel like a situation might demand having a round chambered, I will do that before I exit my car. In my case, it takes so little time to chamber a round in the Shield that it's really not a big deal. I only carry the Shield when the weather is cold enough to warrant people wearing heavy winter clothing. Most of the time that's unnecessary where I live and the ammunition I carry in the .380 satisfies the FBI standards for defensive ammo for both penetration and expansion. Also, I have become quite competent with the Bodyguard as far as accuracy is concerned that I feel very safe with it.
Red Nichols, I have found this thread to be enlightening and entertaining and I thank you for the "holstry" lesson.
crstrode
Member
To parrot several others, this has been an excellent and educational thread.
RedNichols' contributions are outstanding in every aspect.
Of course, thanks are also due to the obnoxious contrarians, without which, Red's wisdom would not have had the opportunity to be aired so elegantly.
RedNichols' contributions are outstanding in every aspect.
Of course, thanks are also due to the obnoxious contrarians, without which, Red's wisdom would not have had the opportunity to be aired so elegantly.
Whitwabit
US Veteran
I've always wonder about the picture in Comment #46 ..
To me it looks like the leather was deliberately poked into the trigger guard and don't see how sitting and moving around in the bucket seat of a car would cause such a deformation of the holster .. no matter how sloppy the leather was .. Something or another object not explained almost has to be involved that the person isn't telling ..
All of my holsters completely cover the trigger guard .. No mater the style of the pistol !!
To me it looks like the leather was deliberately poked into the trigger guard and don't see how sitting and moving around in the bucket seat of a car would cause such a deformation of the holster .. no matter how sloppy the leather was .. Something or another object not explained almost has to be involved that the person isn't telling ..
All of my holsters completely cover the trigger guard .. No mater the style of the pistol !!
As far as holsters go my issued gear included a Boarder Patrol style w/an open trigger guard for my 4” Model 15. Most of those old revolver duty holsters had open trigger guards but I don’t recall any problems w/them. That said I would not want to carry a modern auto loader w/that kind of holster.
If you will look at how your post posted, you will see that on THIS site, underlining is NOT a good way to emphasize a word, nor is using a different color (which is a PITA, anyway). This is because of some automatic advertising scheme which is not related to the meaning of the sentence. Also, colors do not appear the same to all members on this site. Italics and bold both have possibilities, and, for some, drawbacks.
Using caps is probably the easiest, and probably the most easily understood. I certainly hope so, because that's what I usually do. You will therefore not be surprised that I have no complaints about Red's use of caps, and I wouldn't expect him to give a **** if I did.
About "paradigm," however, I have a whole 'nother way of looking at things.
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