The Really Old Chief's Special Thread
- Thread starter bmcgilvray
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wiskerchew
Member
I need to get some pictures up. I have a evolution set consisting of:
16xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
19xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
109xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
118xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
355xx serrated ramp - early flat latch, I frame
2424xx serrated ramp - flared flat latch J frame
But I still need a 3" barrel version...
Yeah, I got it BAD!!!!
16xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
19xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
109xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
118xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
355xx serrated ramp - early flat latch, I frame
2424xx serrated ramp - flared flat latch J frame
But I still need a 3" barrel version...
Yeah, I got it BAD!!!!
if they are 38 specials then they are all J frames
Leatherhead23
Member
In response to some of the above posts, I think that much of this has been covered elsewhere in this thread, but.....
Well......
Hondo44 has the most definitive explanation of the Baby Chiefs, but I'll take a stab at it. The very first Chiefs Special does indeed have the grip of the Inproved I frame (at least the one which was being used at the time the Chiefs was introduced) so in that respect it appears much as the Improved I, but it is still a "J" frame, as the cylinder window has been lengthened to accommodate the longer cylinder necessary to use the longer .38 Special cartridge. So HeyJoe is correct, if they are 38 Specials, they are J frames.
Leatherhead23 is partly correct in that the Baby Chiefs are similar to the Improved I frame, in that they have the smaller grip section. If you put an early fifties Terrier (38 S&W CTG) alongside a Baby Chiefs (38 Special CTG) you will see that while the grip area is identical, the frame is slightly longer to accommodate the longer cylinder.
Here are two Terriers, both on the Improved I frame, top one is from April 1952, and the bottom from September of 1954:
Here is my smooth ramp Baby Chief from May of 1952:
So if you look at the top Terrier, and the Chiefs Special, they were shipped within a month of each other. Note the longer cylinder of the Chiefs Special. But, they have the same length of grip profile. One is an Improved I, and the other a "baby' J. If you look at the two Terriers together, though, you will see that the bottom has a longer grip area that the top!!
Please see Hondo44's thread on this confusing subject, or if you have the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson, 4th ed., You can read some of his information under his name, Jim Carter. He has a wealth of data on these fascinating little gems.
Best Regards, Les
Well......
Hondo44 has the most definitive explanation of the Baby Chiefs, but I'll take a stab at it. The very first Chiefs Special does indeed have the grip of the Inproved I frame (at least the one which was being used at the time the Chiefs was introduced) so in that respect it appears much as the Improved I, but it is still a "J" frame, as the cylinder window has been lengthened to accommodate the longer cylinder necessary to use the longer .38 Special cartridge. So HeyJoe is correct, if they are 38 Specials, they are J frames.
Leatherhead23 is partly correct in that the Baby Chiefs are similar to the Improved I frame, in that they have the smaller grip section. If you put an early fifties Terrier (38 S&W CTG) alongside a Baby Chiefs (38 Special CTG) you will see that while the grip area is identical, the frame is slightly longer to accommodate the longer cylinder.
Here are two Terriers, both on the Improved I frame, top one is from April 1952, and the bottom from September of 1954:
Here is my smooth ramp Baby Chief from May of 1952:
So if you look at the top Terrier, and the Chiefs Special, they were shipped within a month of each other. Note the longer cylinder of the Chiefs Special. But, they have the same length of grip profile. One is an Improved I, and the other a "baby' J. If you look at the two Terriers together, though, you will see that the bottom has a longer grip area that the top!!
Please see Hondo44's thread on this confusing subject, or if you have the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson, 4th ed., You can read some of his information under his name, Jim Carter. He has a wealth of data on these fascinating little gems.
Best Regards, Les
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Leatherhead23
Member
All I know is I've been harshly corrected in the past for calling a Baby Chief a J frame...
As long as that grip is shorter it's an improved I frame.
I mean...the grip is still part of the frame, no? And my other J frame stocks won't fit it...so....
Improved I frame for the win!
As long as that grip is shorter it's an improved I frame.
I mean...the grip is still part of the frame, no? And my other J frame stocks won't fit it...so....
Improved I frame for the win!
All I know is I've been harshly corrected in the past for calling a Baby Chief a J frame...
As long as that grip is shorter it's an improved I frame.
I mean...the grip is still part of the frame, no? And my other J frame stocks won't fit it...so....
Improved I frame for the win!
the cylinder window is part of the frame also and the overall frame itself is longer in the baby chiefs than the i frame.
Leatherhead23
Member
Engine49guy
Member
IIRC the original I frame had a leaf mainspring (Shown left below) where the improved I frame had a coil mainspring (shown right below without strain screw).
The J frame was introduced with a coil mainspring and had a bigger cylinder window and associated longer cylinder ,
If you focus on the distance from the front of the trigger guard to the edge of the frame in the picture below you will notice is longer on the J frame (top gun) than on the I frame pictured below it:
Terriers and Kit guns were originally built on I frames but changed to being made on J frames at some point.
The J frame was introduced with a coil mainspring and had a bigger cylinder window and associated longer cylinder ,
If you focus on the distance from the front of the trigger guard to the edge of the frame in the picture below you will notice is longer on the J frame (top gun) than on the I frame pictured below it:
Terriers and Kit guns were originally built on I frames but changed to being made on J frames at some point.
Leatherhead23
Member
It's all explained in the last post i made which included a quote from Hondo 44. But you knew that when you just made your post. You seem to be the type that when in error refuses to acknowledge the point. If you think you know more than Hondo 44 about baby chiefs good luck to you. At this point you are just embarrassing yourself.
Leatherhead23
Member
Haha..nah...just proving that they are not simply a J frame.
They aren't an I frame either.
Improved I frame Or... Baby J frame
Until Hondo decides to tell me I'm wrong....I'll continue to interpret his words correctly describing a Baby J frame being different than a J frame.
That shorter grip frame is still important.
I doubt he will though....I'm kinda making sense.
-I frame
-Improved I frame (Baby J)
-J frame
^^^^^^all different frame sizes.
They aren't an I frame either.
Improved I frame Or... Baby J frame
Until Hondo decides to tell me I'm wrong....I'll continue to interpret his words correctly describing a Baby J frame being different than a J frame.
That shorter grip frame is still important.
I doubt he will though....I'm kinda making sense.
-I frame
-Improved I frame (Baby J)
-J frame
^^^^^^all different frame sizes.
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another post on the subject on page 2 of this thread, this time by Handejector
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Leatherhead23
Member
Are you not even reading what you're posting?
My last post on this silly argument....
I agree with the referenced post by Handejector's...the Baby Chief's are NOT an I frame.
They are also....NOT a J frame.
They are an Improved I frame. AKA Baby J frame.
Three different frame sizes...I, Improved I, and J.
The faster you learn this, the better collector you be because you can inform others correctly.
Nice chatting with you.
P.S....I find it odd that you use other people's word for YOUR side of the argument. I speak for myself.
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I quote them because they know much more on the subject than I do and i defer to their expertise in that area. If you read Handejectors full post on the second page you will see that he is answering someone who had said that Baby Chiefs are improved I frames.
Leatherhead23,
The convoluted I and J frame evolution of the 1950s lacked research and correct documentation in the books for many years and that caused confusion.
There are three I frame variations and two frame sizes, (because 1 & 2 are the same size, just different mainsprings):
1. Pre war and Post war Transitional with leaf spring
2. Improved I with coil spring
3. Model 1953 NEW I frame forging
And 2 J frame size variations, but both have the same cyl window size:
Baby J
Model of 1953 NEW J frame forging
All vintages of J frames have an 1/8" longer cyl window than I frames, which determines them to be J frames. Neither trigger guard size nor grip frame length determine the frame size.
So there are two I and J frame grip frame sizes:
Pre model 1953 Transitional and Improved I frames, and Baby J frames have the same size grip frame lengths and grips interchange, (and same small trigger guards).
Model of 1953 NEW I frames and NEW J frames forging, again both have the same NEW 1/8" longer grip frame length, and larger egg shaped trigger guards. Since these grip frames are the same size, grips will also interchange.
I hope this is helpful,
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Leatherhead23
Member
Well since it's so easy to understand and all.....sheesh. Thanks S&W. Lol
I'll stick to my K and N frames and stop trying to understand several frame sizes all being called the same thing.
Thanks for stepping in. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. I was just having fun debating.....I'd debate that the sky is red if I get the chance....
HeyJoe....you're right. But I guess you knew that.
I'll go back to just posting pictures and stay out if the S&W deciphering department.
It seems there's very little about S&Ws to understand easily, and there's absolutely no more complicated frame size than the I frames and the J frames to figure out. There's now 3 different J frame sizes, Baby J, 1953 J, and the relatively recent J Magnum frame. And of course the 3 I frames.
We've all learned a lot from this forum, and once we do, we can help others, which you have the disposition to do. So don't give up now that you can advise/debate from a more informed position.
I had the fortune to pick up an early 4-digit S/N Baby Chief from a long time S&W collector a few years back. Was most likely shipped in 1952. The gun is near mint and the only thing that could make it better would be if it had the box!
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