The trainwreck is starting NOW.

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I do not like the use of the term "trainwreck" in the title.
I did look at the link.I hope we are not on track for more
socialized healthcare.

Thanks

Mark
 
Yes, I think we are seeing the very beginning....right now.

Where is this going? Are the socialists going to prevail and completely destroy this country...or is "Mr. Everyman" going to stop this in it's tracks?

I'm afraid time will tell...and I don't think we are going to have to wait very long.

God bless these patriots.
 
I do not like the use of the term "trainwreck" in the title.

Mark, with all due respect, I believe that "trainwreck" rather vividly describes what is likely happening now to Obamacare. People are fed up and they don't want to take it any more. This administration needs to quit ignoring the will of the people.
 
There's an upside to all this. If any meaningful change is killed thanks to people acting on behalf of the insurance industry, knowingly or not, they're going have to live in the same broken-down wreck of a country with the rest of us.

And then when the day comes that their insurance company pulls the rug out from under them like they do the rest of us on a regular basis, their johnny-come-lately learning experience won't be worth a bucket of spit.
 
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Mark, with all due respect, I believe that "trainwreck" rather vividly describes what is likely happening now to Obamacare. People are fed up and they don't want to take it any more. This administration needs to quit ignoring the will of the people.

The administration isn't ignoring the will of the people. They are very cognizant of it. They are busy denigrating it, labeling it as something else, and doing everything they can to suppress it. We're too stupid to know what our own best interest is. This is the problem.

I would not be surprised to see middle class riots breaking out. It will be as close to revolution as we've come.

Maybe *this* was the change he meant???

There's an upside to all this. If any meaningful change is killed thanks to people acting on behalf of the insurance industry, knowingly or not, they're going have to live in the same broken-down wreck of a country with the rest of us.

And then when the day comes that they're insurance company pulls the rug out from under them like they do the rest of us on a regular basis, their johnny-come-lately learning experience won't be worth a bucket of spit.
Since when did this become about bashing the insurance companies? Since polling showed they were vulnerable. I'll remind you the insurance companies were on board with the whole program from day one. Over 70% of the people are happy with their insurance companies. This is Obama's problem.
 
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Mark, with all due respect, I believe that "trainwreck" rather vividly describes what is likely happening now to Obamacare. People are fed up and they don't want to take it any more. This administration needs to quit ignoring the will of the people.

I agree. Having railroader friends,I am thinking," blow up in his face"
is more apt.Another link ,best I've seen today.Now I'll probably get
reported as" fishy".

'Castroturfing' America

Thanks

Mark
 
Since when did this become about bashing the insurance companies? Since polling showed they were vulnerable. I'll remind you the insurance companies were on board with the whole program from day one. Over 70% of the people are happy with their insurance companies. This is Obama's problem.

Insurance companies appreciate it whenever people think it's about the president and not them. Here's a former exec:

"WP: The industry says it will accept more regulation, but the evidence is that it flaunts regulation on the books now. Insurers are often cited for violations of many state regulations, and they usually agree to settle with insurance commissioners or the attorney general and pay a fine. Fines are the cost of doing business, and even if the fine is several million dollars, it is inconsequential compared to profits insurers make.

TL: What can we expect from insurers as this reform discussion continues?

WP: Until there is actual legislative language, we will see the industry continue to be in favor of reform and portray themselves as coming to the table with solutions. They will try to persuade reporters that the industry has changed this time. They are saying the same things now that they said before. A lot of young reporters weren't around then, and don't know what they said in '93-'94."

Excluded Voices : CJR
 
So when did this become about the insurance industry, since they were on board with the president from day one? Please answer the question.

FWIW, I was audited by BATFE and was cited for numerous violations as well. The regs are so numerous, shifting, and sometimes contradictory that it would be impossible not to have any. The fact that insurance companies get cited for violations is testament only to the complexity of the regs.
 
Read his entire interview. Here's a little more:

"TL: What else will we see?

WP: We will see front groups formed to attack any legislation or parts of legislation the industry doesn't like. They've done this in past campaigns. They will use front groups to rip legislation to shreds. It's inevitable that will happen again. It already is. You can be assured that the industry is behind the increasingly vocal opposition to the public plan that would compete with private insurers."

By the way, that interview was on June 24th before we saw any of the town hall meetings being shouted down.
 
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spotteddog suggests calling Obamacare: Obama's "Operation Market Garden". I like the handle, perhaps not meaningful to all, but those who do get it will love the similarity.
A disaster by any name is still a disaster.
Roger
 
""Trudy Lieberman: Why did you leave CIGNA?

Wendell Potter: I didn't want to be part of another health insurance industry effort to shape reform that would benefit the industry at the expense of the public.

TL: Was there anything in particular that turned you against the industry?

WP: A couple of years ago I was in Tennessee and saw an ad for a health expedition in the nearby town of Wise, Virginia. Out of curiosity I went and was overwhelmed by what I saw. Hundreds of people were standing in line to get free medical care in animal stalls. Some had camped out the night before in the rain. It was like being in a different country. It moved me to tears. Shortly afterward I was flying in a corporate jet and realized someone's insurance premiums were paying for me to fly that way. I knew it wasn't long before I had to leave the industry. It was like my road to Damascus.

TL: What was so upsetting about the industry that pushed you over the edge?

WP: I was in a unique position to know how companies made money—what they had to do to satisfy shareholders—and how the industry has been able to kill reform in the past. I had been part of those efforts and didn't want to be part of them again.""
 
"***"

I do not like the use of the term "trainwreck" in the title.
I did look at the link.I hope we are not on track for more
socialized healthcare.

Thanks

Mark

OK then .........
how about a "disaster of biblical proportions".

If bammycare can't be classified as a trainwreck of colossial disaster and failure I don't have a clue as to what else it could be called.

And if none of the above are applicable how about "a total clusterf**k" or a "supreme circle jerk".

It all means the same thing ....more government intrusion and control over something that is not broken...but sure as hell will be when they are finished with it.
 
""TL: Why is the industry scared of a public plan that would look and act like Medicare?

WP: A public plan could offer the same benefits as a private plan at less costs because it would not have the high administrative costs—which include sales, marketing, and underwriting expenses—associated with most private plans. It would not be under constant pressure from Wall Street to reward shareholders by constantly keeping an eye on the medical loss ratio and earnings per share, another key measure of profitability.

TL: Are the members of Congress who are most vocally against a public plan aligned with the industry?

WP: Yes. One of the things they can exploit is to talk about how a government-run plan would wreck the free market system in health care. Many members of Congress believe the free market can still work with health care.

TL: Can it?

WP: There's no evidence that it has worked since the Clinton plan failed.""
 
This IS going to be fascinating to watch.
Please pass the pop corn, we've already got the Kool-Aid.
 
This IS going to be fascinating to watch.
Please pass the pop corn, we've already got the Kool-Aid.

When people go to these town halls and other events and spout the stuff they hear on Fox or talk-radio, they should know who they're helping and who they're hurting. They may think they're helping their granny or their neighbor, but they're not.
 
I'm thrilled that 70% WITH insurance like their plan. What about the rest of the freaking country??

We made some serious retirement decisions based on the promise that if my wife made 30 years with the phone company we would recieve life time health care.

We actually watched our 401K, which they shoved the old retirement system over to "so you can manage your own retirement" drop from $89 a share to $1.12 a share as Enron tanked. That happened as it became apparent that Nachio and Authur Anderson had done the same thing at Qwest as Ken Lay and Authur Anderson did at Enron. Just like Enron employees could not sell their shares unless you retired or quit and if you quit before retirement age of course you had to re-invest the funds and pay a 10% tax penalty for the withdrawl.

That's when the company dumped the retiremnt system on the Feds. So right now my wife gets no retirement till age 65 instead of 57 when she got 30 years. We also have 30,000 shares of Qwest that is worth $18 a share less than we paid for it and $71 dollars a share less than it's peak. When by the way the upper management was selling 9,999 shares per day per person ala Enron. Yeah right, plan for your retirement. We would have much better served to have taken the %12 of my wifes saalary she contributed for 30 years and put in the top dresser drawer. At least we'd have the pricapal.

I don't even get THAT angry any more because we made a decision that the health care, given my problems was worth more than the retirement and we had to ride the share/401 drop out. My bad.

My wife "retired" in 2002. This year we recived notice that the labor department had sided with the company and that retirees are not employees. Thus we can not be covered by union bargaining by the Communication Workers of America.

On January 4th we recieved notice from United Health Care that we now had to pay a premium. Our free life time insurance now costs us $360 a month. Not only that, they are setting all the retirees up for failure. You can not pre pay. You must pay the premium monthly with the supplied coupons. If you are late by more than 15 days on any payment you are canceled. If you accidently bounce a check, you are canceled. If you not enclosing the coupon makes it so they can't post your payent before the 15 days, you are canceled. Yeah, that's real fair and ethical.

Oh, they also required that I go on Medicaire or be canceled from UHC. That cost me $147 a month. It also puts UHC third in line to pay any claims on me.

So in the last year the benifits have been cut and we have been presented with $6084 in annual exspense that was not a part of our retirement plan. Now I know that compared to some it isn't that big of deal. My retired sister now pays $560 per month her her health care. MY brother got a 7% raise last year and his increase in his share of his health care premiums went up $16%

If the system works for you are you are flush enough that the premiums aren't a problem great I'm happy for you.

We do happen to be the only country in the developed world without universal health care.

I had to have a tooth pulled a while back. I have to admit I very lucky to actually have some dental coverage. It only cost me $87 out of pocket. While in the chair with the in network dentist. In her huge office, nicer than my house with over 40 employees, I asked just how was that business model working for her. She admitted right now not well with fewer people actually having any coverage and money tight.

The next question was, okay you, like doctors essentually only see people now when the condition reachs a point the person can't avoid it. She admitted that was true. Okay so what would prentative care cost? With two exams a and a cleaning and say one filling each year $500 per year. "Anybody can afford that". Really? I'm a freaking coal miner in Appalachia with 4 kids, do you really think I have $3000 a year to spend on preventive dental care or preventative health care?

80% of all bankruptciers in America are caused by illness and health care cost.

My wife and I had decent jobs with benifits. We also had a chronically ill daughter. Even though we had insurance our share of her care ran in excess of $30,000 a year. That was after insurance. Without divesting of all assets we did/would not qualify for any goverment programs.

The fact that we as a group are sitting here talking about buying guns we want but don't need would indicate to me that we, as a group are more affluent that the average American. For the vast majority of people in this country the system simply no longer works!!

Oh, yesterday I got some coupons in the mail from the dentist for $100 off every filling and $200 for all crowns. Things mustr be getting tight.
 
The number of people paying premiums into the envisioned universal HC system will be the same as today, around 70%. But, 100% of the residents in the US (citizens and others) will all be eligable for "covered care".

Those 70% will see their premiums rise every year, and the level of healthcare drop. Of course, the non-payers will reap a windfall in free (to them) healthcare.

To see a model of this just Google "Grady Hospital Atlanta Ga." This major hospital operate at a huge loss every year and is suplemented by huge tax payments from the surrounding counties.

The current system could be improved, but turning the whole shebang into a Government run system is like throwing gasoline onto a small fire in hopes it will extinguish it before it gets out of control.

We are in a full blown depression, but you won't hear it described that way on the state run media. The average american worker has been stripped of his life savings by the economic events of the last 10 years. The depression has shut down their abolity to earn a living. For many, their only hope is for the government to come in and expand the welfare system and add healthcare to the other government entitlement programs.

I find it interesting that foodstamp recipients saw a 25% increase in their payments in the last 12 months when the average worker has seen pay cuts of near that.
 
Wicka--You bring up some good points, but let's debate this in the open. I don't think any one side has all the answers. However, the tactic so far has been to try to pass it under cover of darkness without meaningful debate. That didn't work, so now the President is giving Dems their marching orders to try to "sell" the program on their "listening tours." Two questions--1) How about Congresscritters LISTEN during their listening tours and 2) Since when does Congress work for the Executive Branch?

I think folks are more mad that Congress is not listening to them. Their approval rating has been in the gutter for years, and now it's coming to a head. I think this just happened to be while health care was on the table.
 
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